Menu
Sign In Search Podcasts Charts People & Topics Add Podcast API Blog Pricing
Podcast Image

Conversations with Ghosts

1.13 - The Folk Song Archivist

07 Jan 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What does Mal Fleming learn about folk songs?

3.035 - 17.368 Mal Fleming

My name is Mal Fleming. I am here to assist in your passage. Can you remember your name and the circumstances of your death?

0

18.53 - 44.948 Burt Nagra

Mal, pleasure to make your acquaintance. Bert and Agra, natural causes. Well, I drifted off listening to an old tape of mine, something I'd done quite a few times before, except this time I didn't wake up. What were you listening to? Bluegrass music from a recording trip I did a few hours outside of Knoxville, near where I grew up. I'd been trying to track down this one banjo player.

0

45.589 - 64.307 Burt Nagra

He finally agreed to let me come by with the rig. Anyway, it was him and a couple other fellows, all old-timers, but they really knew how to play. And they gave me a tremendous amount of shit for how long I took setting up the mics. Yeah, I can still smell the wood stove and the tobacco from his house.

0

64.387 - 82.728 Burt Nagra

And then towards the beginning of the recording, you could hear the old boy's dog barking in the background. So he quieted down once the music started. Probably the best version of Foggy Mountain Breakdown I ever heard. And I saw Flattin' Scruggs live. You a fan of folk music, Mel?

0

84.171 - 93.465 Mal Fleming

I like some, I guess you could call them contemporary singer-songwriters, but I think that's a little bit different from the type of folk music you recorded.

94.106 - 113.94 Burt Nagra

Well, I wouldn't know. I'm a bit out of touch with what's popular these days, and the jukebox at the bar that's not called Spirits leaves a lot to be desired. Of course, you had Tommy Doyle singing his drinking songs back when he was around, but I'd already recorded a number of those when I did my Irish American Songbook.

114.292 - 121.039 Burt Nagra

I was hoping when I got here there'd be more songs to hear from the other residents, but they mostly want to talk, not sing.

121.059 - 130.048 Mal Fleming

Have you met Bridget? I tried to get her to sing some of her mother's lullabies, but she didn't want to. I did, briefly.

130.088 - 155.178 Burt Nagra

Nice girl. I'd love to hear her sing, but she's always too tied up with the widow. And then, of course, I wouldn't be able to record it between not having my gear and the obvious part, which is a damn shame. Then, of course, we had Joey with his ruckus going all night. I never got into disco personally, but I understand why people like it. Dancing, it's a universal human need.

Chapter 2: How did Burt Nagra's career in folk music begin?

258.566 - 285.631 Burt Nagra

Handel's Messiah had nothing on what those boys were singing. They were so in tune and so in sync, even hauling ropes and nets. I'd never heard anything like it. That's lovely. Is it recorded anywhere I could hear it? You can hear it on my Songs of the Basque Country compilation. Just one of the records that came out of that trip. Check a record store, maybe the library at CUNY.

0

286.393 - 292.745 Mal Fleming

Oh, it's on streaming. I researched some of your work earlier. I hope that's okay.

0

292.765 - 299.397 Burt Nagra

Sheesh. I had a feeling the distribution thing would get easier, but I didn't realize it'd be that easy. Crazy.

0

299.782 - 307.091 Mal Fleming

Can that thing record, too? It can. I was actually recording some crow song earlier, if you'd like to hear. Sure.

0

310.956 - 326.335 Burt Nagra

Huh. Now that's really something. I had a colleague at CUNY who specialized in recording birds, Susan Quinn. We used to compare field notes from our trips, talk about what collecting folk songs and collecting bird songs had in common.

327.316 - 328.398 Mal Fleming

What did they have in common?

328.799 - 351.248 Burt Nagra

Quite a bit. As it turns out, every culture has their own folk songs, just like anywhere with birds has bird song. But the more you travel and hear, the more those little differences become apparent. I'll start you with an easy one. Roosters. North American and Asiatic roosters have totally different calls. But they're both still waking you up at 5 a.m. wherever you are.

352.029 - 369.867 Burt Nagra

Still doing the same job, just a different uniform. And folk songs are kind of the same way. They all serve the same purpose. Celebration, mourning, getting through the work day. And of course there are local legends and stories and mythologies that are distinct to every place.

371.264 - 398.247 Burt Nagra

I was most interested in trying to capture that, you know, show how special every culture's folklore is while also showing its universal purpose, just like dancing. But also because folklore, the songs, it's all so fragile and so close to vanishing if it's not preserved in some way. You'd be surprised at how quickly culture can disappear like that. Maybe you've already seen it happen. Yeah.

Chapter 3: What challenges does Burt face in recording folk music?

465.701 - 472.208 Mal Fleming

You mentioned growing up in the South, Tennessee, right? Was that when you got interested in folk songs?

0

472.468 - 498.283 Burt Nagra

Yep. My dad was an engineer, worked for the TVA for 40 years. That was after they eminent-domained the family property, of course, but you can't beat them, join them, right? Anyway, he was a part-time tinkerer outside of work, always had a project going, ham radio and the like. He managed to get his hands on an early Edison recorder through a work connection. Thing weighed half a ton.

0

499.204 - 521.194 Burt Nagra

I had to help him haul it around. And we had a family that worked the coal mines growing up, always heard stories from that time. That's where he got interested in the songs. My first project was helping my dad compile some of them. First it was just a book, but he eventually managed to get some of them on wax, too. That was where I caught the bug, so to speak.

0

521.214 - 544.431 Burt Nagra

Sounds like your dad was a big influence on your work. Oh, he was. He mainly focused on recording locally, but I think he would have wanted to travel more if he could. Working and supporting the family made it tough for him, so I had to carry the torch. And there was a personal connection to your first recordings with the coal miners? My grandfather and great uncle, they both worked the mines.

0

545.232 - 569.376 Burt Nagra

Didn't like to talk about it because of the coal wars and the unions and the like. Knew a lot of people that ended up hurt or killed or in jail. Weren't exactly positive associations. Then there's the whole matter of losing your livelihood when the company decides to just up and leave. But that sourness they had towards it made it feel all the more important to document the songs.

571.699 - 593.663 Burt Nagra

There was this one instrumental number for banjo called Coal Creek Treaty. Some of these tunes, they sounded pretty upbeat, but they were about dark stuff. A lot of bluegrass is that way. A happy song sounds sad, and sad songs sound happy. This one was like that. The banjo has this real lightness to it.

594.335 - 613.858 Burt Nagra

But I think it was the rawness of the recording we did that really allowed us to capture the sadness. You could feel the force of the playing. You know, he was playing claw hammer, that percussive technique, calloused fingers on the strings, not plucking, but striking. Rocking chair creaking on the front porch.

615.36 - 639.245 Burt Nagra

A song about a man's busted back from working in the tunnels feels different when you can hear the back brace rubbing against the wicker, you know. It wouldn't have been the same if we'd recorded it in a studio with fancier equipment. We had to get it there, in its element. It's the only way to capture what the song's really about. And nobody would have heard or remembered it if we hadn't got it.

639.926 - 647.848 Burt Nagra

Not even the people that sang it. I'm telling you, this stuff... It's like a mist in the air. It's there, and then poof, it's gone.

Chapter 4: How do folk songs reflect cultural identity?

713.405 - 736.841 Mal Fleming

Right. I think it was that. Anyway, I think what I found most memorable about her performance is how it felt like she was channeling something. It didn't just feel like an artist playing her songs. It felt like someone tapped into something deeper. You know, the type of music that only comes from years of practice and really knowing your craft.

0

737.783 - 739.185 Burt Nagra

I'd love to hear some if you could.

0

739.766 - 740.627 Mal Fleming

Oh, yeah, sure. Sure.

0

747.003 - 766.075 Burt Nagra

Beautiful. I can see why it resonated with you. I can only imagine how it'd be live. I'm glad you like it. It's been forever since I've heard anything new around here, so I'll tell you, it's like a breath of fresh air. Just wish I could hear it in the room where it happened.

0

767.101 - 778.059 Mal Fleming

I'm impressed that you're still eager to hear new things after all these years and all the work you've done. Most people, they seem to stop looking for new music after they hit a certain age.

778.079 - 801.748 Burt Nagra

And it's a damn shame. Well, it's to be expected. People get set in their ways. They get busy. Not everyone's got the fever for it. Though I don't think it's entirely their fault. The way we've made the world louder and busier... when you've got the same music pumped into every bar and restaurant and public space. It makes sense why people want a break from it.

802.689 - 825.983 Burt Nagra

And then there's the matter of how flat and samey it all is. I'm guessing bassia battlemente isn't the first thing you hear when you turn on the radio. No, I don't think so. Maybe college radio. Thank God for college radio. When my dad and I were first sending out promos, we could always count on the kids at MTSU or UT Knoxville to give it some air time.

826.904 - 850.071 Burt Nagra

But anyway, that was the other thing I was trying to do with my work. I was trying to document all the songs I could because of the way popular music was going. It seemed like everything wanted to become the same. People in those little villages in Spain I talked about, whenever they got radios and TV, they'd lose interest in their traditional music. They all wanted to start guitar bands.

851.012 - 856.499 Burt Nagra

There's nothing wrong with guitar bands, but there's so much more out there that people never get a chance to hear.

Chapter 5: What is the significance of preserving traditional music?

954.524 - 977.029 Burt Nagra

I fought with the heads of arts councils to get an extra 500 bucks for duplication. I remember it all. If I'm not around to advocate for the music, what good is it? Sure, some kid might find folk songs of the best country to secondhand shop and play it for his friends while they're stoned. Okay, great. Doesn't mean they understand it or give a shit about where it came from.

0

977.752 - 981.697 Burt Nagra

If I can't be there to tell people what it's really about, what good is it?

0

984.26 - 1009.494 Mal Fleming

I hear that. It's frustrating how little control we have over the story of our lives once we've passed on. But one thing I've learned from studying history, from talking to the other permanent residents, It's that stories shapeshift over time. They evolve. They always do.

0

1009.834 - 1030.202 Mal Fleming

Sometimes it's because of misinformation or lost records, but in other cases, the knowledge of the past gets richer the more we know about it, the more we see the bigger context. And we get that context because of primary sources and people who know how to look at them correctly.

0

1030.182 - 1058.948 Mal Fleming

And I would argue that the sheer volume of work you created, all that context, even if it's not on the radio, it's promising, helpful, whatever. And people still like hearing these songs. Yeah, a stoned college kid might not pick up on the intricacies of the Basque fisherman's harmonies, but she appreciates it on some level. She enjoys it. It's still music. That's true.

1060.07 - 1085.468 Burt Nagra

It's still music at the end of the day. But you have to understand what it's like to be on my end of things and just taking your word for it. I'll say it loud and clear for your recorder. The answer is no. Okay. Look, Mal, I don't mean to be so pig-headed about it. I've enjoyed our chat. You should come back whenever you'd like. I'm always happy to talk music.

1085.566 - 1094.717 Burt Nagra

I would recommend you get out and hear more stuff. I mean, you're still young. Eventually you won't be able to as easily, but I'm not going anywhere.

1094.737 - 1102.166 Mal Fleming

I understand. I'll, I'll come back later.

1107.753 - 1110.696 Unknown

Wow. This place is a lot more ornate than it looks from the outside.

Chapter 6: How does technology impact the recording of folk songs?

1331.314 - 1332.796 Mal Fleming

That was lovely. Thank you so much.

0

1333.617 - 1340.248 Unknown

No problem. It's funny, I still felt like I was playing to an audience, in a sense. When will the recording be available?

0

1340.588 - 1342.912 Mal Fleming

Soon. We'll have it up on the website in a few weeks.

0

1343.313 - 1347.68 Unknown

Thank you. I'll see myself out. I might walk around a little bit more before soundcheck later.

0

1352.026 - 1355.552 Burt Nagra

Now how in the hell did you pull that off?

1357.945 - 1371.765 Mal Fleming

To be honest, I had no idea if the Graybriar would approve it. Had to call in a favor with the grounds department, but Ren owes me, and Bosia was surprisingly easy to reach. Responded to my email within a day or two.

1372.326 - 1403.798 Burt Nagra

Well, nicely done. You sure know how to play to the crowd. I try. Though you'd have to imagine it could backfire... What if I insisted on ten more songs before going through the onyx door? I'm just kidding. I appreciate you, Mal. You've got real follow-through. Thank you. Guess I'll take a beat and get out of your hair. Don't forget to put that song up, though.

1404.149 - 1415.208 Burt Nagra

And hey, maybe send it to some of the kids at Radio CUNY, if you have a sec. See if they can get it on the airwaves. I'll do my best. Good man. See you around.

1423.562 - 1425.786 Mal Fleming

Burt Nagra. Passage Completed.

Comments

There are no comments yet.

Please log in to write the first comment.