Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is an iHeart Podcast.
Guaranteed human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing day 17. How did this guy, seemingly amateurish, yanking up foliage to put over the door cam, wearing a gun, polyester gun holster hanging down around his crotch, how has this guy managed to elude law enforcement, including the FBI. Is Nancy Guthrie still alive? If so, what is she enduring?
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
Chapter 2: What updates are there on the Nancy Guthrie case after 17 days?
It's been two weeks since our mom was taken.
We still have hope. We still believe. To whoever has her or knows where she is, it's never too late.
As we go to air tonight, a blue fly technology, a very sophisticated technology to detect low frequency Bluetooth waves is being used, hopefully to find some evidence of Nancy Guthrie's heart monitor, her pacemaker. This as reports of the match to the single glove found as we hear DNA will link. to the DNA found in the home. How do they know that? Is that inaccurate? Is that overstating?
Again, with me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning now. To Dave Mack, joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Dave Mack, tell me about the blue fly technology.
This is amazing technology, Nancy, that focuses in on Bluetooth identity electronics, okay? It flies on a drone about 600, it can pick up the Bluetooth signal or a Wi-Fi signal from over two football fields away, about 665 feet.
Well, hold on, hold on. Did you say two football fields away from a drone?
Yes.
I didn't understand that. That is significant. Hold on. Hold on, Dave Mack. Brian Fitzgibbons is joining us, Director of Operations, USPA, Nationwide Security, leading a team of investigators around the world to find missing people. Also, former Marine and Iraqi war vet. Fitz, thank you for being with us tonight. Now, hold on. Two football fields away. That is news to me. Tell me how that works.
Yeah, so we've actually learned in recent days and fellow former Marine Dave Kennedy and cybersecurity expert has posted and shared this publicly that he's created an integration with an amplifier, a larger antenna, basically that gives the sniffer a bigger nose. So when these Bluetooth low energy signals are typically only read at 25 to 30 feet.
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Chapter 3: How is blue fly technology being used in the search for Nancy Guthrie?
I bet he is, that it's attached to one of the skids. Guys, our friends from Fox News shared this with us. We're looking for the blue fly technology. And yeah, I think you're right, Fitz. I think you're absolutely correct. So let's see what it actually looks like, what the device looks like. Now, what you're seeing right now, we believe drones were then used.
Drones were used, it's my understanding. Dave Mack, yes, no. Was the blue flight then attached to drones so they could get lower to the ground?
Yeah, at first they were using helicopters, flying grid patterns. Then they switched to drones after four days.
Okay, back to Brian Fitzgibbons. So, wow, Dave, they've been doing this now for at least five days. Okay, Brian, if you could very slowly educate us on the blue fly technology again. It's been around for a while. but you don't hear it openly discussed. The FBI had to bring this in. I do not think local law enforcement nanos had it.
So again, very slowly for us, many people just are learning about it.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of the DNA evidence found in the case?
Tell me again.
Yeah, so this technology began as a pretty high-end defense technology. And then they found with it a search and rescue application quite some time ago. And then they began to use it in search and rescue scenarios, missing hikers, skiers, things like that, that they believed had devices.
But it started how? It started how?
So this was originally a cyber security tech used in the defense industry to find and locate any surreptitious devices that were emitting radio frequencies in or near. Such as what? This would be foreign national governments trying to listen in or capture information in or around Department of Defense or intelligence facilities. And this tech would sniff that out.
Put them up, put them up, put them up, put them up. I need to look at you while you're saying this. Okay, I knew about Blue Fly, but I didn't know that. Okay. It started with cybersecurity tech used in the defense industry to find surreptitious devices, such as those used by foreign national governments, trying to listen in. Is that what you just said?
Yeah, so there could be any number of things that these devices that are not allowed to be there could be doing. And that technology, they found a greater application or new application for it in the search and rescue space that they could apply that same methodology in the same use case to go out and find devices associated with missing persons.
And that's where you've seen this tech implemented kind of in the mainstream is in search and rescue applications.
Such as?
You know, you have the missing hiker, missing skier, missing persons that have devices on them. This is not the first time that this has been used. I think what's novel here is, you know, what I had spoken about that cybersecurity expert Dave Kennedy has found is the ability to amplify that to increase the range. That's the breakthrough here with Nancy's case.
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Chapter 5: How is law enforcement tracking potential suspects in the case?
They'll lose, of course, but it will be a big hurdle. Explain why.
It will certainly be a challenge. So the courts like science that has been generally accepted, that has widespread acceptance, scientific consensus, and when we have new technology, there just hasn't been enough time for the scientific community to reach that position. And so certainly what defense would do in court is say, hey, the principles behind this are not reasonably reliable.
They have not been tested enough for this to be admitted into evidence at what could be a very high profile criminal trial.
Well, of course, Eric, it has been tested in the military sector. I mean, Brian Fitzgibbons, how long has blue fly been used in the military sector anyway?
That's not clear, but I would say that this type of signals intelligence has been used for quite some time. The military and intelligence apparatus has certainly been concerned for more than a couple decades on finding devices that shouldn't be in and around their facilities.
So, Faddis, even though this type of technology has been around, as he says, for about two decades that we know of, What you're referring to, I believe, is acceptance in court and acceptance by appellate courts, like DNA was accepted. Yes, DNA had been used since... in war, I guess going back all the way to at least the Korean War, and you get an immediate field test answer on DNA.
That said, it wasn't accepted in criminal trials until many, many more years later. So you've got to have it accepted in court. It may be a landmark case for all we know if this ever goes to trial, allowing Bluefly to signal sniffer technology in as it will get in. There's no question about it.
You'll bring in a couple of Secret Service guys and they'll explain it to the court and it will come in. It's just an evidentiary hurdle you have to go through. I want to go back to what's happening now in the Nancy Guthrie search. It's amazing to me, absolutely amazing to me, to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, in addition to Dave Mack from Crime Stories and Eric Faddis, trial lawyer.
Joseph Scott Morgan is professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University that has an incredible criminal evidentiary program. He is a death investigator with over 10,000 death scene investigations under his belt. He's the author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. And he's a star of a hit new podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
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