Show notes
The private club industry enjoys a steady resurgence, with waitlists becoming the norm in markets across the U.S. Furthermore, experts predict the greatest generational wealth transfer in history, from Boomers to Gen X and Millennials, by 2045. So, how will this new generation spend its time and money? Frank Vain, CEO of the McMahon Group, joins us this episode to share his perspective on the future of private clubs, and what he believes will be critical for their continued success. Vain's perspective is unique. As the leader of the McMahon Group, he works with club leaders nationwide, surveys members, creates long-range strategic plans, and provides counsel. Therefore, he has a pulse on the industry and insightful thoughts on what clubs are, and should be, considering as they plan for the future. Generational experts will tell you that Gen X, Y, and Z value very different things than Boomers, and they measure their status and identity in distinct ways. How clubs adjust to these various demographics could be the difference between continued success and failure. The make-up of future club members is changing, and club leaders are struggling to keep longtime members happy while attracting new, younger ones. This balancing act involves many factors, and Frank Vain and his team at The McMahon Group help each club discover the right approach -- because, as we know, all clubs are unique! Key Moments The "Golden Years" of private clubs - 2:57 The pandemic is the best thing that happened for private clubs - 6:25 The target demographic in the "Golden Age" - 15:43 What clubs need to do differently to attract younger members - 20:36 In what areas are clubs investing? - 25:03 What successful clubs can do to stay healthy - 37:00 Podcast Transcript Ed Heil [00:00:00] You're listening to Crushing Club Marketing, a podcast for progressive club leaders looking to increase their club's revenue. Time for Change begins right now. Ed Heil [00:00:12] The private club industry continues to enjoy a resurgence, with waitlists becoming the norm in markets around the U.S.. On top of that, experts predict the greatest generational wealth transfer in history from boomers to Gen X and millennials by 2045. So how will this new generation choose to spend their money and time? Frank Vain, CEO of the McMahon Group, joins me today and shares his perspective on the future of private clubs and what he believes will be critical to the continued success of private clubs in the future. Ed Heil [00:00:44] Thanks for listening. So, Frank Vain has a unique perspective as the leader of the McMahon Group. He works with club leaders across the country. Surveying members, creates long range strategic plans for clubs and provides his counsel, his advice is experience to club leaders so that clubs can make the best decisions for their clubs. He has a pulse on the industry and a perspective on what clubs are doing and what they probably should be doing as they plan into the future. And generational experts will tell you that the values of Gen Xers, Gen Y, Gen Z was totally different than the values of Boomers. And they'll also explain to you how they measure their success or their status or credibility in a totally different way. So for Boomers, where a country club is totally, you know, status type thing, it is not really the case necessarily for Gen X, Y and Z peers. In fact, they're more concerned and more interested in experiential type of engagements than they are things like club memberships. So the landscape of future club members is changing. And yet club leaders today who are typically a little bit older are trying to figure out how to balance keeping longtime members happy while attracting young, newer numbers or new younger members, if you will. There are so many factors in this balancing act to consider, and Frank and his team at the McMann Group are helping to figure out what is right for each club. Because, as we all know, all clubs are different. So here's my conversation with Frank Vain. Well, Frank, thanks so much for joining me today. Frank McMahon [00:02:36] Well, great to be here. Thanks for having me. Ed Heil [00:02:38] Yeah. So, boy, a lot to cover today. And in what you have called the golden age of clubs or some variation. Sorry, I don't have that, but the golden age of clubs, I guess. Let's start there. What? When you talk about that, what does that mean? Frank McMahon [00:02:57] Well, I think, you know, it's a combination of things. I mean, in one way, it signifies that we're a little bit out of the wilderness. And in a way, you know, certainly, you know, the financial the Great Recession, 2009, 10, 11 were, you know, pretty tough period, a very tough period for clubs. And and they came back in sort of fits and starts after that. So you had really a good, gosh, 10 or 15 years there of some pretty challenging environment for for most clubs. And then, you know, and so the golden age and saying, you know what I'm trying to signify and that is that while it is an industry that that is subject to to ups and downs over time, we've seen that in the past. I think there is more here. There's a combination of things happening that that are more enduring. And so the golden age signifying that there was a convergence of sort of lifestyle, really a lot of that triggered by the pandemic was certainly a big part of it. There's innovation, whether spurred by the pandemic or other factors. Clubs have really changed quite a bit over the last several years. And then there's demographics. The demographics have turned in their favor where, you know, particularly the millennials now are at the age where club membership makes social and financial sense for them. So that whole golden age is meant to say, yeah, you know, things go up and down. And obviously if there's another major economic break like we saw in 2008, you know, sort of all bets are off, you know, But but really, that doesn't see any sign of that happening in that with with all these things converging at one time. It really ought to be something that lasts for quite a while. And I would say it's, you know, six, seven, eight, nine years you can look out there and all these factors seem to be playing into their favor. Ed Heil [00:05:05] So maybe if we can put some of that in context within you know, as you started, you go back several years and the industry is in a pretty constant decline up until the pandemic. Is that right? Frank McMahon [00:05:22] Yes. Yeah. Really over over the course. And I say 2008 or 9 there, but really over the course of a good, you know, 20 year period of time. Number of clubs declined, number of golfers, if you're a club with golf, you know a number of golfers in the US declining for a long period of time, particularly among younger people. You know, you certainly saw the number of clubs went out of business about 20 to 25% of. And we're tend to follow what I would call the, you know, the member owned club. You know, there are other quasi commercial entities and semi-private kind of things that are in there. But when you think about the sort of the traditional member owned club, they all their numbers were down. So yeah, I think by every metric you could say it was a I would say they were out in the wilderness for, for quite a while. Yeah. Ed Heil [00:06:15] And then I've heard you say that the pandemic is the single best thing that has happened to private clubs. Is that, in what way? Well said. Frank McMahon [00:06:25] Well, it really again, it's a it's a bit of a combination of things, but I think at its core, it just it it made evident their their value. Why do I why do I want to belong to a club? And so whether it was for access to services otherwise difficult to come from come by or, you know, sort of their personalized service or dealing with an a, a, a group of known parties, if you will. Right. That all of a sudden smaller was better, more intimate and privacy was better. People were nervous about sort of being out in the public. We were cautioned about you know, cautioned about that. So, you know, a lot of that, you know, just really expose that, well, hey, a club is more than access to a golf course or a swimming pool or whatever. It's it's a community. It's a collective group of of of people. There's an approval process. There's a, you know, a communications process and a whole sense of community around that where we were all searching for that, right. Or going Covid as that was suddenly yanked away from us in many ways and, you know, cautioned about going outside or traveling on an airplane or going to a meeting or going to a restaurant club, stood out as a bit of a beacon during that period. So while I could still enjoy a lot of those things, but also do it in a way where I felt a little a little more comfortable because even though those members could have been susceptible to the same disease as everybody else was, there was just sort of a sense that you're a member and a kind of of that extension of family almost, as opposed to something worse, you know, completely out there in the public. Ed Heil [00:08:16] In some ways. Did. Do you think the pandemic reintroduced people to private clubs may be in a different way? I mean, some of the stereotypes of private clubs and private club members for so long was, you know, I mean, especially if you're a golf club with limited activity. But it seemed like through the pandemic, it brought families together and community together, like you're saying, in a way that was. In some ways more fulfilling, enriching than it was before. Frank McMahon [00:08:53] Well, I think that's right. Yeah, I think it kind of turned it on its head. Right. You you had you know, you had kind of a political and social environment of getting over that same take, that same 20 year period, 2000 to 2020, where, you know, exclusive, exclusivity was sort of judged a little more negatively. And all those things sort of, you know, you were seen as not as our exclusive exclusive access, but exclusionary, discriminatory, you know, those sorts of negative connotations assigned to it. All of a sudden it turned that on its head because it said sort of, well, hey, I get it. You know, I, I get why I would want to be part of a smaller group and then share value, share activities and experiences within that group. And so as opposed to exclusive exclusivity being seen as this this pejorative and you don't want me sort of thing, it was seen as, Oh, that's a way to build a little network there and and a group and thrive and grow even within a rather challenging environment that was going on around them. So yeah, I think it flipped that on its head and said, Well, actually there are some there are some value there to all that. And and I get it. And you know, and you saw that call because prior to that it was often interesting anyway. And once you had that negative perception about being in a club and clubs as they were struggling often had this goal, well, it's maybe it's too expensive, maybe we should do this or that. And all of a sudden it was more value. The price went away, initiation fees went up, the dues went up and all those kinds of things. And so the value perception increased dramatically and, you know, dollars and cents followed it up with that. But it was really the sense of, okay, this is this is what I want from, from a from a group. Ed Heil [00:10:59] Yeah. And as someone who consults with with private clubs and I've heard you talk about this, but it's the the innovation that occurred at the start of the pandemic. And I remember conversations that I was having with different people, and I was floored by how quickly clubs were putting things into motion, you know, you know, whether it was a little igloos that were going up, especially in some of the north courses up north or whatever they were. And, you know, their bureaucracy was gone. Things in there were innovating around family. And it was it was it was pretty remarkable. So now here we are at this point where it seems like people have been, I don't know if this is true or not, but it's almost like there's this renewed sense of value for your club and in how much you can do and what you want to get out of it. Matched with this golden age, this run now and I reading some other things about the amount of generational wealth that's going to occur in the next several years, right? So there are going to be a lot of younger people with more, you know, potentially more discretionary income that they can spend towards that. Are those all sort of the things that like, as you were saying in the beginning, are those also factors as it relates to the next 8 to 10 years? Frank McMahon [00:12:21] Well, I think so. As long as that and that sort of as you turn to the future and say, you know, and I think most of our clubs are saying right now, how do we keep it going? Right. That's a that's a good question at all club leaders should be asking. And I point out and you're you're wise to mention this whole notion of of innovation, you know, the the notion that people wanted community and privacy during Covid and, oh, yeah, I get that, right. That's a pretty easy connection. They wanted outdoor recreation. So yeah, golf boomed out, outdoor tennis boomed, all that. I think you could get there on those pretty quickly. I think the innovation piece of it often goes underreported. And and yet it was the way that clubs responded and it and it just shows and it should be a good lesson for club leaders that a lot of those things you say happened overnight, whether it was let's all of a sudden start, you know, Tuesday night tacos on the terrace or whatever or. Now building the igloos outside the great little City Club in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania. The Westmoreland Club had a courtyard next to it, primarily a dining club. And all of a sudden they popped these igloos out there and people are out there in the courtyard having fun, you know? I suspect if management had gone to the board a couple of months in advance of that and say this winter we're going to try igloos outside and people are gonna dine in them, that's an idea that that dies at the boardroom table. You know, I think so. So they were there. So they were ready to respond. And, you know, I don't know, I guess somewhat some of those ideas are work and some of them won't work. But it was the fact that they were so willing to try because in many ways they were scared to death. I think many of us being included at the beginning of Covid, that was my my first reaction was, "oh my gosh, here we go again". You know, it's going to be another 2009 or 2010 and people aren't going to want to join clubs and we're going to have another raft of closures and all that. And of course, after about a 3 to 4 month period of time where all that was incubating, the future turned out to be far different. But yeah, whether, you know, clubs just took snack bars and made them in the outdoor restaurants or, you know, the igloos as we're mentioning, or put simulators or there were clubs that took they're all ballrooms, right? Because no, no more activities, no more group events. And they put, you know, simulators in the ballroom and all of a sudden people are in there hitting golf balls and having fun, you know? So, yeah, that that carried through and that that is a big takeaway is that I think that's just a lesson that there ought to be, you know, you can't reinvent the club every year, but having a healthy dose of innovation in your, you know, in your business plan and your strategic plan is extremely important. Ed Heil [00:15:17] Yeah. Let's talk about who the clubs are targeting or maybe should be targeting in this golden age. What what are you seeing and what's your. Because I think for a long time they target guys that are I'm in my late 50s you know my age maybe a little bit older. It's you know, that that's the target member. But it looks a little bit different today, doesn't it? Frank McMahon [00:15:43] Well, it does. And, you know, it's certainly a bit younger. I mean, again, you'll have the joining age versus, you know, I think the average club member nationwide still mid-fifties is you're talking, you know, 54, 55 is generally recognized as a, you know, pretty much the the profile of the average member. But the joiner, as you know, tends to be about a 42 year old couple. And a lot of joining happens age 35 to 45. And now that's again that's that's why we're very optimistic about the about this being able to continue into a golden age, that we continue to innovate and we continue to have demand for things like golf and tennis and some of these recreational activities, health and wellness. But the addressable market, so to speak, is expanding the you know, the millennials just now, the oldest, you know, where where clock the clock ever starts ticking on these demographic things. But if you just say, you know, 1980, right, then the the oldest millennial right now is 42, 43 years old. So they're getting right there and there's a whole cohort of 80 million people behind them that that suggest over the next decade, the number of people in their early 40s is on the increase. And so, you know, you just look at lifestyle in general, right? Look look at what's happening out there and, you know, housing. Right. All the demand for housing today and and schools that go along with that. You look at equity markets and the resilience and the amount of investment and capital flow that's happening there. Those all happen around a period of time where the middle age group is expanding. You can almost transport a lot of what's happening in the club world today. Back to the mid 90s, which was another good boom period for clubs. Guess what? The baby boomers were in the same position there, you know, at that point as millennials are now. And so you know so clubs should be thinking about that group and thinking about that they're ready to you know, they were very urban a decade ago. Our cities were booming and people want to live downtown. And we saw that renaissance in the American city. We're having a similar uptake now. And the American suburbs where those millennials who were 40, 42 years old had some kids. Now they got married a little later. I got married in the early 30s or so. Now they've got some six year olds and eight year olds and ten year olds, and they're ready to move to the suburbs, get to where the schools are. The. Houses with space and all those things that they need. And guess what? They need a club that helps socialize and get ingrained in the community, meet other people, meet other young families, or have outlets for those clubs where the kids are on the swim team or they're playing junior golf or, you know, just the family can go there for holiday brunches and, you know, those sorts of things. It's just right in their sweet spot. And so, yeah, I, you know, clubs ought to be targeting on and we all we think of it in a couple of ways Yeah you know you get the 6065 and over a group you're pretty set in your way at the club get that mid age group and they tend to they've got money and time. They're using the club quite actively more golf players played and things like that. And then you have the young family that's sort of 45 and under. So but that's the future, right? The older group is natural attrition. You know, they they move to Florida. Obviously the biggest thing is people get sick, they pass away or whatever they need to be replaced. And so that young group and that early 40s is is ready to come in and replace them. I think you've got a lot of people that are if we're offering the right things that they're looking for. Ed Heil [00:19:37] Right. And I think that I mean and hence the I think the crux of the conversation because you know so many well, you hear generational experts talk about the country clubs don't mean the same thing to this younger generation than it meant to say the Boomers. And there are so many things they're interested in, whether it's travel or just other activities, experiential things with their with their families. Right. That you hear generational experts talk about. So given all that, you know, while there is this population that, you know, this this market, if you will, that's potentially available or that clubs can go after. What do clubs need to do differently, in your opinion, as a as it relates to amenities, messaging, how clubs position themselves in the experiences they offer these 42 year olds? Frank McMahon [00:20:36] Sure. Sure. Well, I think I think the big one to really think about is their approach to to family is I've often said that the young the young members coming to the club today are bringing their children with them. But the punchline for all that is that they expect you the club to be actively programing and and ways kind of taking care of those kids while they're on campus. I think historically you go back to, you know, the Boomers and even pre prior to that children came to the club and it was almost a sort of, you know, you know, it could be seen and not heard sort of approach. Right. And and if you took your kids to dinner at the club, they were going to sit at the table and you were going to figure out how to keep them under control that whole time while they were sitting at the table and and making sure they weren't, you know, upsetting the apple cart and the quorum of the dining room or the club in general. They might have even come in with their little blazer on. Right. Right. To come in and set at dinner with you. Today's young family says, well, we're coming. We're going to have dinner. The kids probably are going to get a little rambunctious. Are you going to show them a movie down the hall and they're going to be able to go to the game room or you're going to do something for them? Of course, aren't you? While I'm having dinner, you know, and they they really have a hard time understanding why you wouldn't be doing that. And and frankly, it's not all that complex. It's not all that difficult to do. We typically have a lot of space and and all that, but it's about programing to ease that. Again, these families are busy, probably both adults. The likelihood that both adults are working is very, very high. So they're crunched for free time, so to speak. And so if the club is seen as, again, that refuge, they may want to be with the kids in doing something. But they also want to know that the family is there at the club and participating either jointly or separately in these kinds of activities. And so, you know, I think as the court looks to to to to satisfy that group, really recognizing that the children are vitally important in that whole equation and and the kids aren't coming to the club to be disciplined or to be told to sort of sit down and be quiet. They want them in. You know, they want them to learn something. They want to make sure that the junior golf or the junior tennis or whatever programs are, there's real instruction there. There's real training that goes along with that. I mean, I remember junior golf, right, was the mom and dad's would walk along the golf course with the kids and you just sort of made sure that nobody got hit, had with a golf club was kind of, you know, watching her golf was all about today. People want their junior golf the. There is instruction there and you to go along with that. And so at all levels, it's it's really programing across the spectrum there. And with with for this group in particular a real high priority on that. The families are welcome. Kids have spaces that they can enjoy. Pool locker rooms are no longer it's no longer acceptable to have these kind of, you know, industrial strength pool locker rooms, but something that's kind of attractive of the food and that sort of thing that you're serving now. All those things really saying that the family is really, you know, in the wheelhouse, really part of our mix. And you've thought about that in all aspects of physical facility too, and most importantly programing so that there's there's engagement. Ed Heil [00:24:10] You know the idea of having club this more family friendly for lack of a better term it's it seems like you'd have a lot of club leaders that would agree with that and say oh yeah for sure, but it's how they they get from where they are to that in some cases that match with the fact that, you know, I mean, you talk to more people than I do. I'm sure in the in the space. However, it seems like everyone sort of a lot of clubs are making capital improvements. And in I know many clubs the decision is might be around something focused on whether it's a golf course and what we're doing with the golf course versus, gee, should we spend more money to update our dining services, to expand more families, family areas? What are you seeing out there as far as you know, where clubs are investing? Frank McMahon [00:25:03] Yeah, well, you're you're correct in our opinion. And again, the core of McMahon's business as we got into the call, the space 40 years ago was actually an outgrowth of our architectural company and with with really a focus it was going to go around the country and do Cornell architecture and all and a lot of a lot of ways that's still a big driver in our business. But again, it's the strategy and the concepts that go behind that. But overall, that period of time we've been involved in a couple of billion dollars worth of capital projects. And yeah, it's a it's a you've seen few periods, if any, frankly, where there's been more capital spent. A number of clubs as well as the size of what clubs are doing. It's the number of clubs. We all read the periodicals and you know, we certainly experience it firsthand, the clubs doing, you know, 20, 25, $30 million projects, you know, values that are unheard of. And there's obviously some inflation in that. But but it's also the scope and the reinvention and the things that they're doing. So, yeah, they're spending a lot of money, you know, and really across the board, I'd say first and foremost, it is the reinvention of the food and beverage outlets, all of that, that that, you know, the people don't want stuffy and so the formal traditional dining room or the past and all that they want that same sort of feel that they get when they go to the new hip place downtown. So indoor outdoor, you know, the sliding nano walls, the outside sitting areas, the fire pits, the radiant heat so that we can sit outside in a room that's we're not just dining on the terrace. The terrace has actually been reinvented to be an outside dining room. Right. You know, that sort of thing. Certainly the bar areas that clubs are putting in that, you know, again, in the bar itself, as you know probably many members like a like a good drink. But the but the beauty of the bar room and these well, I'll say these pubs and such the clubs are building it's a space that you could just walk into by yourself and just see who's there. You know, I'm going to go to the wonder if Ed's at the club tonight or whatever, whoever just walk in that room as opposed to walking in the dining room and everybody's looking at you and, you know, it's just you and somebody else or whatever. You know, it's it's a it's a communal thing, you know, and a place to meet. So and I think they, you know, the upshot of that also that we always say is right everybody eats right. So, you know, you can you can affect the most members, the hardcore golfer to, you know, the social member who, you know, is just there for dining all them and their spouses and their families all have have the ability and the interest in using the food and beverage facilities. So I think that's been the, you know, probably the top reinvention area that you that you've seen. But, that continues right on down the line. There's a lot of stuff going on in the golf world. You know, I mean, we again, we think of golf as you make the course the best we can make it. And frankly, the data would often show that, you know, clubs may overspend on on the course itself. But today, a lot of money is going into the practice facilities, the simulators, the golf learning areas, the putting courses, the short game areas, top golf and other features, other other other facilities have shown us there's multiple ways to enjoy golf. And so, again, if you're going to be great in golf today, you've got to have a golf performance center. Or why would your members go to name any names or why would they go to so-and-so sporting goods to get fitted for their clubs? They need to be doing that at your club, right? That's that's why they join the club. And if the club wants to be cutting edge, it ought to have a fitting room. It ought to have, you know, simulators not only for fun, but for training or short game area and all that. And, you know, modern golfers have have seen that. So, you know, in almost all our activities, you know, you can you can talk about swimming. Right. Swimming used to be a swimming pool was a box of water with a, you know, a concrete deck around it. And there were some lounge chairs and there was a snack bar where you could get a, you know, a hamburger or a hotdog. And, you know, that was sort of the fine of the day. That was that was what people felt was there today. You know, the whole vernacular around the resort style pool complex. And there's spray grounds or slides or shade structures, upgraded food and beverage. And, you know, the water is about the same. You just need a good a good place to take a dip. But the environment around that is completely different than what what we had in the past. Ed Heil [00:29:53] What's the biggest objection you hear from from club leaders when you advise them to do what they can to make their club more family friendly. Frank McMahon [00:30:05] Well, I you know, it's it's the leadership in clubs like a like a lot of you know ultimately it's a bit of a of a of a political activity if you will. And then you know politics generally skews to the, you know, to to the older demographic. Right. Again, people who have time, they want to get back. They're well-meaning. But, you know, you've got a lot more time to serve on a club board if you're in your 60s than when you're in your 40s. Right. But again, unfortunately, there's a big disconnect, disconnect between what this what the 60 year old may be thinking and what the 40 year old really wants to buy. And, you know, and that's that's not to criticize. I'm I'm certainly above that myself. And, you know, not not all folks in that age group means that they're resistant to change or opposed to it. But I think it's often hard for them to really appreciate it. Right. And to really, truly, truly sense that demand and and always have a level of skeptical skepticism on this as well. You know, is it really worth the money? Should we make that expenditure this summer? So it's tough for them to walk in the in the shoes of that young group. And and, you know, there's often a you know, a sense that, well, they either take what we've always offered or they're not willing to pay up for what it would take to to have these kinds of services. And, you know, the reality is often very different. Again if it's for their family, the millennials are often willing to pay for that. You know, the millennials, on an inflation adjusted basis, the 40 year olds who are out there today make more money than the 40 year old baby boomer did. You know? So they they they are in a good financial position and are generally probably willing to spend it on their on their club. But, you know, I think it's that just that generational divide that's often you know, unfortunately the the to make those investments everybody in the club is probably going to have to pay up in one way or another. Right. So again, getting that that that older member to say, yeah, we ought to expand the fitness facility, we ought to renovate the pool complex. And by the way, you're going to get a, you know, a dues increase or, you know, a capital fee or an assessment to make those happen, You know, and that's why it's important in any capital plan to look across those age groups. You know, you can't just go one direction and say, okay, we're going to focus all our energy and focus all that on the pool. You're doing that pool. You ought to be giving the golfer something at the same time and, you know, doing shopping and dining or whatever. You tend to want to spread that around a little bit. So, you know, each of the each of the age groupings can look at it and think that they're going to get some feel they're going to get some real value. Ed Heil [00:32:57] Out of it. Right. There is a policy. The politics of it all is is your say. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what happens next? I mean, you know, some clubs are going to adapt and change. Some clubs may not and and obviously painting with really broad strokes here because some clubs are you know, not all clubs are the same, right. And different clubs have different ability to do things and these but generally speaking, what is your thought as far as how this plays out as we move forward with the Golden Age? Frank McMahon [00:33:31] Yeah, well, it's certainly a better environment where, you know, the rich have gotten richer, so to speak. To use analogy, those clubs that can put up the capital have furthered themselves from the rest of the marketplace and even put themselves in even stronger positions than they were than they were in previously, which again, can, you know, eat up, you know, eat up the demand in the marketplace. Some of them have created capacity. And, you know, that allows them to expand their membership a little bit and things like that. Said the other way, right now, if your club is not doing very well in this environment, I'd be really concerned. You know, at the club today, that's not what I want. You know, we we we believe and the data suggests that more than half the clubs in the country have a waiting list today. So, you know, if you're in that other half and you're not close, well, then you you know, you've got some some real concerns. And, you know, it's it is time to shake it up a little bit and see that, you know, what what innovation can you put in there and how can you rally to do things? I think in a lot of ways, it's you know, we see those big projects as we're talking about, but things can be scaled. And that's, again, what we were talking about earlier about the innovation period. You know, I have a client that comes to mind Manor Country Club outside the Baltimore area. They had a, you know, a snack bar area that was, you know, the golf. First made the turn there. They put some money in that. They put some shade structures outside of it, bought some new furniture. This was not a big expense. And all of a sudden they had a really valued casual outside area on a lawn where people could just come in and chill and they were able to put a little money in the cooking equipment and picked up. You know, expanded that menu somewhat. So, you know, this was not a, you know, $1 million rebuild of the of the snack bar. It was taken an existing facility. And if they spent 50, $75,000 on that, but they they got to where they needed to get to for that. So I think a lot of times, you know, the there's a thought, well, we need to blow the whole place up. It's often very valuable to to incubate programs and, you know, move ahead with, you know, at least get your toe in the water and start to do things. I think the smaller clubs can do that. The trends are probably going to be the same across those demographic groups. You know how much you can do with each club will be determined by the market location and the support of, you know, the overall financial wherewithal of that community. But society's moving in the same direction. And and I think the goalposts are the same. You just have to figure off, you know, figure out how much of that you can bite off at any one time. Ed Heil [00:36:30] Yeah. You talk about the clubs that are not maybe the clubs that don't have waiting lists for clubs that maybe aren't doing aren't doing real well. Obviously, change is something that I mean, they might as well think about it, right? Let's do something different. Shake it up. What about the clubs are doing well that that are sitting on their hands. Is there a risk in being cocky at this time? Frank McMahon [00:37:00] Yeah. Well, I'd I'd say, you know, it's funny I the experience when I, you know, sort of first in the in the club industry, you would go and sort of make a sales call for lack of a better term. And then a lot of times, you know, we find ourselves in the metropolitan New York area and you go into a club and you might have had a pretty famous sort of brand before you showed up. You had a perception of, well, this is really a special place. And you got there and you looked around and you're like, Wow, this is this is not all that impressive on the surface here. And then you talk to some of the club leaders and everything else, they're like, well, it's fine. We're full, you know, So why why do we need to do anything where, you know, we're doing great. You know, so. And so, you know, that was just instructive for me that, you know, Yeah. Resting on your laurels or sitting back and saying, yeah, it's fine. That's that's not going to be a valued, you know, a valued club or valued membership down the line. You certainly see that in the Florida market today where, you know, some new and innovative and big clubs have come on and some of these clubs have spent. I mean, talk about club spending 30, 40, $50 million. All of a sudden, some of the older clubs in some of those market places, you can go on the west side of Florida right now and find some folks that were the market leaders, you know, a decade or so ago. And right now, they can look down the street and find that boy, you know, brand X as all of a sudden, really about quite you've got a lot going on over there, you know. So, yeah, I think in any business, you know, leaders need to be thinking about that 5 or 10 years and and challenging sometimes that's harder. You know, for our conversation a moment ago, we always say, you know, it depends on how much pain the club is in. Right. You know, in any business, if you're if you're, you know, staring at solvency or viability, you're probably at some point say, okay, well, let's try that because this isn't working, you know? You have to guard against that notion that we're there. Right. We're done. And so, you know, and and you see that a lot of clubs, clubs, clubs tend to approach both strategic planning and capital planning in an episodic way. Okay. We're going to do a strategic plan and we're going to check that box and it's done, or we're going to do a capital plan. We're going to go out and we've spent a lot of money here in 2025, and that's going to be done. And we're never going to have a capital program again, you know, or, you know, almost that that's inferred or assumed or sometimes even used as the language of selling the program as well. We haven't done anything for a decade or two decades or we're going to do this and then we're done. What we're trying to get clubs to realize is it's, you know, it's much more of a flywheel approach. You've got to put some investments in. You're going to create some new programs. You're going to have some new activity. Hopefully that's generating some new membership and new interest. But then you go back to the beginning again and you you know, you do your research to find out internally and externally what do people want? Are we providing it or what's next for us that you could continue to, you know, continue to do and to, you know, to push the thing forward and so know that that can you know, like I say, sometimes that can be a tougher, a tougher, you know, sort of sell or a tougher mission because, you know, everybody else is just sort of sitting there saying, well, it's fine. You know, gosh, we're full. We got a waiting list. This is just great, you know? Well, on the facility side, you know, facilities are always in some state of challenge. They're aging. And so there's some level of deterioration and, you know, getting enough capital to either maintain or improve is always a battle. Also, they you know, they might sit on their hands relative to that where if they could take an a more consistent way and manage their resources work under the concept of a of a long range plan and always be looking ahead. That's you know, that's what the great clubs can do is what a great organization can do. Ed Heil [00:41:02] Yeah. Awesome. Frank, thanks so much for your time and for your your thoughts on this. [00:41:10] And thank you for listening. If you find the content from this episode to be helpful, subscribe to Crushing Club Marketing wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep crushing your club marketing.