Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hey, it's Kate Snow, NBC News anchor, host of the podcast The Drink with Kate Snow. I sit down with all kinds of celebrities, musicians, athletes over a drink of their choice for candid conversations about how they made it there. With actor-comedian host Joel McHale, I could barely stop laughing. You know Joel from Community or The Soup, his new show Animal Control.
He asked for four bottles of Washington State wine for our interview. He has news about whether there's a Community movie coming. He tells the story of how he got one of his first big acting gigs by lying about his height. And you have to stay through the credits. He's so funny. We have behind the scenes bloopers and outtakes from our conversation.
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You might just come away with your own glass half full.
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Hi, everybody. I'm Keith Morrison, and we are Talking Dateline. Today, I'm here with a reprobate named Josh Mankiewicz to discuss his latest episode, The Professor and the Poet. Interesting title, Josh. Did you pick that one out? Let me put it this way. No. Yeah. No.
If you have not seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast feed and then come right back here for our talk. Later, we'll have an extra clip from Josh's interview with the killer's ex-girlfriend. Then I'll be joined by Dateline producer Rachel White to answer social media questions about the episode. Are you ready, Josh?
Let's do this. I have never been more ready. All right. There's literally nothing you can do right now that will upset me.
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Chapter 2: What is the story behind 'The Professor & The Poet' episode?
This guy's physically dangerous. You need to get away from it. Don't ever be alone with him. I don't think anybody ever said that to her or thought they needed to.
Well, they don't advertise themselves. You know, somebody who is smooth and homogeneous and apparently very charming but has a violent undertow, they're not going to say, hey, by the way, I can be a violent guy. Watch out. You know?
The prosecution theory of the case was that he came over. We're not clear why. Is he trying to get more money out of her? She probably didn't have any money. Is he trying to calm her down? We don't know. We don't know. But they have a drink together and then something happens. And... There's a fight. And then he realizes, this is the state's theory, that he can't go back.
And they start physically battling. And he's much bigger and stronger than she is. Did he go over there to kill her? Not clear.
Not clear. However, after the fact, the whole business of moving the car and putting it in a place where some idiot might steal it, which, of course, some idiot did, indicates he's trying to cover up the crime, at least.
Oh, no, this was a very smart guy. This was a very smart guy. And, I mean, look, you know, in a lot of jurisdictions in the world, a guy with a criminal record who's caught driving the dead woman's car and runs from police, like, that's your suspect, and everybody can go home early that day. And you're sticking with him.
Yeah, but to their credit, I think Montgomery County Police thought, this guy's kind of hapless, and he's a thief, and he's kind of a dope, maybe. But this doesn't feel like the killer. But it's an avenue in investigative work that you have to go down, because you're going to get asked about it. I mean, there were a lot of burglaries in that neighborhood.
We should talk about the neighborhood, too, because I know that place very intimately. Well, yeah. The neighborhood went downhill after you lived there, right? Well, and why do we think it went downhill is the question, right? But, you know, I mean, the cool people stopped coming when I moved out. Let me just say that.
That's not true. So before we pick up the case again, tell me about this neighborhood and where it happened.
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Chapter 3: What led to Sue Marcum's tragic death?
And I probably, driven by that house or been driven by that house as a kid, like maybe like a thousand times. I mean, I had friends who lived really within walking distance of there. Her fire station was our fire station. Her public library was our public library. I mean, I've ridden my bike past there all, you know, many, many, many, many years ago.
But to get back there, to recognize where you are, must have been quite a moment.
Yeah.
It was, you know, and also, you know, that part of Montgomery County, you know, it hasn't changed that much. It was just me and my parents back then. My brother hadn't been born yet. I mean, or as my dad referred to it, the good old days, but it was an interesting place to live.
And then later, later, now that we're talking about that, I became a reporter at the local ABC station, WGLA Channel 7. And so then I also covered Montgomery County, which is where I met the guy who's now the state's attorney, but at the time was a line prosecutor, John McCarthy. And it was great to be a reporter in the same area that I'd grown up in because I knew my way around. Sure.
You know, this is beginning to resemble an old-fashioned British detective story because, you know, it's a reporter drawn back to his home community and why there's a murder he should cover and how interesting the murder is. And he follows it around from place to place in his old neighborhood, having feelings of connection.
Right. And then what happens? Yeah, but then he gets together with the girl he left behind. Doesn't that happen? Because that didn't happen on this one.
That's not a British murder mystery. You're getting all American on me now. Yeah, that did not happen. Hang on a minute, Josh. We're going to take this little break. I want to talk about this in a minute, but can we take a break here? And then we'll come right back and discuss the rest. Yeah. Okay. Sure. Right back.
Hey guys, Willie Geist here. We're celebrating 10 years of Sunday today by hosting a very special Sunday sit-down live event, and our guest is one of the biggest stars on the planet, Ryan Reynolds. We're taking our conversation to the stage in front of an audience of you for one night only at City Winery in New York on April 7th, an intimate in-person evening I promise you won't want to miss.
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Chapter 4: How did Jorge Landeros become a suspect in the murder?
The cop told me once, the thing that gets to him the most about his job is he knows when he's going to arrest somebody. even if there's a long route through the court system, that when he takes that person out of their home, puts them in the back of a car to take them in for questioning, that person is never going back to that place again.
And they'll try to rearrange things so that the dishes are done or something, or the piece of paper that they need to look at when they return will be there. And the guys, letting them do these things, knowing you're never coming back here. You're not coming back. We got you. You'll never see this life again. It's a dramatic moment.
One interesting thing that I think didn't make the story, the TV story, is – you've seen this. Cops place a lot of importance on what suspects do when they're in custody and they're alone, right? Because innocent people are climbing the walls, right? Like, I can't believe I'm here in this interrogation room. Get me out of here. I want a lawyer. I didn't have anything to do with this.
Let me explain everything to you, right? Guilty people the thinking goes, can doze off. They get their feet up. Because they know. They got a long stretch ahead of them. Well, on the plane back home, this is a guy who's been plucked out of Mexico, identified by DNA, and is now in leg irons and cuffs and knows that he's looking at a considerable amount of time like that.
He falls asleep on the plane going home. And they found that interesting, I think.
Yeah. What about this? I'm a little confused about Rocio. Is that her name? Rocio, the new girlfriend? That is her name. Was that in Mexico?
Yes. Rocio was a woman that he met in Mexico. I think he met her through yoga. And then they became friends. And then they became more than friends. And then he and his dogs moved in with Rocio and her kids. And, you know, Rocio...
It tells a different story than I think Sue Markham would have told in some ways, which is she says, you know, he was very sweet to me and he was very interested in me. And then things change. Yeah. You know, we're living together. He cheated on me. She says during sex, he would choke her in a way that she found particularly alarming. Right. He would separate her from her friends. He was sort of.
More typical controlling violent behavior. He was. verbally abusive. Now, this guy is a guy that that personality is a guy that you and I have covered like dozens of times. That person is like a lot of the guys that get arrested on daylight and they're not writing any poetry. Finally, she sort of summoned up her courage and knew that she needed to get away from this guy.
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Chapter 5: What insights did Josh Mankiewicz share about his childhood in Bethesda?
No, no, no. Yes, you just left the confines of your comfortable home here in Southern California, and you did a jailhouse interview, didn't you, for an upcoming story? Yes, I did. I just want to say, I love that you are out there and you are still chasing the bad guys.
Stop it now. But you know, I came away from this and perhaps I'm naive, Josh. I allow that possibility every day that frequently I am. But I went and I conducted a jailhouse interview with somebody who had been convicted of murder, who will spend the rest of his days in prison. And I left there thinking, he might not belong there.
I mean, I've heard lots of people offer their claims and their opinions and their I'm innocents over the years, lots of them. And you kind of know when they're— Most of them are lying. Most of them are bogus, yeah, sure. This one is interesting.
I love that you're out there. There may be snow on the roof, but there's still fire in the furnace. That's this guy right here, baby.
Yeah, every once in a while I take a walk outside, too. You know, take my dog for a walk, that kind of thing.
Keith Morrison, folks, coming soon to your local airport.
Sure. Right. Yeah. You know, another little interesting thing that happened to me yesterday when I was on that trip, you know, occasionally people, as you know, will come and say hello. Oh, yes. And there was a group of people, I think they were FBI actually, who stopped and we had a picture taken, but a mother and daughter.
came to speak to me, and they were lovely, lovely people, and they were traveling to Sacramento to see state legislators to ask for their support for a campaign to fund a program to help poor children get hearing aids, poor children who are unable to afford, you know, they just go through life without being able to hear well. Well, that's nice, it's a nice thing to do. And they said hello.
On the way up. And then on the way back from Sacramento, well, who should I see on the airplane but them? I thought, well, that's an interesting little coincidence. The life we live on the road, as you know, Josh, can be very interesting and produce meetings that you never expect to happen.
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Chapter 6: What were the warning signs in Sue Marcum's relationship?
It's a lovely picture, by the way. And Rachel, you are in it from the, what, you're the second from the right in the picture?
Yep, that's me in the blue scarf.
There you are. It's great. Must have been a fun trip. And the viewer asks, was this in Juarez?
Yes.
So that was in Mexico City. That's where we were on that day shooting some B-roll, as we call it, of, you know, Mexico scenics. And that's in a very famous park in Mexico City.
It's beautiful. Yeah. May I just offer a little – compliment to Mexico City. I think it's, my God, it's a wonderful city. The architecture, the sort of feel of the place, the grandeur. Mexico City is underrated, I think, by a lot of Americans. Lisa Scott on Facebook says, this is the second high-profile murder by yoga instructors.
I thought yoga was supposed to relax you and give you inner peace. The other yoga instructor was the woman whose name was Caitlin who killed Mo Wilson. I remember that one very well because that was my story. The cyclist, of course. Yeah. It's really just a comment. Lisa says I'll stick to aqua aerobics. Thank you.
But, you know, there's no reason why somebody in aqua aerobics couldn't get a little jiggy as well.
You know, maybe you heard this on your story too with the yoga instructor, but a few people made comments to us like, you know, you're in a place that is supposed to be zen and you're supposed to be mindful and relaxed. And there was something about the yoga instructor that you just kind of inherently trust. They seem very grounded, very centered. So we did get that comment a few times.
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Chapter 7: How did the police track down Jorge Landeros?
And I think she took those things that she learned at the Ringling Brothers into the classroom. So I could see how that would be a fun way to learn counting.
And finally, Raven Red, I should say. Raven Red on Facebook says, I would have enjoyed having Sue as a friend, which is probably an appropriate way to begin this ending.
I think that a lot of people that we talked to certainly felt that way. I mean, part of producing a show at Dateline is gathering photos from family and friends. And, you know, sometimes you get a lot. Sometimes you don't get very many, just depending on. a million different reasons.
In this case, we got hundreds of photos of Sue and they were colorful outfits and, you know, exotic trips and huge groups of friends that she was hosting. Always a huge smile on her face. She just really seemed like a lovely person, somebody that you would want to hang out with and be around for sure.
Well, Rachel, thank you so much for answering these questions for us. And clearly you were deeply involved in getting that story on television. Good job. It was good.
Thank you very much. Thank you. Before we go, I have a question for you, Keith.
Oh, here's trouble.
From one of our viewers. Yeah. And this is coming from a Dateline viewer named Riley in Montana.
Okay.
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