Chapter 1: What is the main focus of the episode regarding celebrity scandals?
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Hello and welcome back to Fame Under Fire with me, Anushka Matanda-Doughty. Today, we're going through the inbox, taking a look at the questions you want answering. We asked for questions on Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni trial and the Macron's Candace Owens case. You sent them in and we're going to answer them.
So just a reminder, that's messages about the defamation lawsuit that French President Emmanuel Macron and his wife Brigitte have brought against the right wing influencer Candace Owens. as well as questions on the Blake Lively-Justin Baldoni trial, which we will be covering live in the flesh in New York in May. Joining me, as usual, is our resident trial attorney, Sean Kent. Hi, Sean.
Hey, Anushka. How are you doing? I'm good. This is a bit more of a subdued look for you. A gray suit.
Very casual. I'm a casual guy. Anushka, I'm working on my understatedness. So this is a subtle purple.
It's a little bit of a light touch approach, Sean. There you go. But we still appreciate it. Some might say classic Anushka.
A classic look. A classic, Sean. What do y'all call this? It's a vest. So what do y'all call it? An undercoat? We call them vest. What do y'all call it? A waistcoat? Waistcoat. There you go. That's what you say. I'm wearing a waistcoat.
Yeah. And then you always wear what I would call a vest, but you call a wife beater.
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Chapter 2: What are the details of the Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni trial?
Okay, so Baldoni did file a lawsuit for $400 million saying that basically Blake was defaming him. She says, I know it was dismissed because he said Blake was defaming him by filing complaints in her lawsuit.
But if he wins the civil case and the jury says we don't believe that Blake was sexually harassed, can he refile that lawsuit with the backup that one jury already found him to be telling the truth? Sean, take it away.
No, let's make it just very simple. He cannot refile the lawsuit under the same theory that he filed the lawsuit under originally. What the court said is you cannot use the filing of a lawsuit and the things that somebody puts there as your basis for defamation at any point in time. Because what it would do is it would have a chilling effect. It would stop people from filing lawsuits.
And that's not what we want to do. Because if somebody has done something poorly against you, you should have the right to file a lawsuit against them. Now, separately, if he comes with a different theory, if he says it wasn't the stuff that's put in the lawsuit, then yes, he could bring it.
So he could refile, you say using a separate legal theory, but could that legal theory be, I'm not saying she defamed me by filing her original lawsuit because that's protected, but I am saying that this jury found her to be not telling the truth. I've been saying she was not telling the truth since the beginning. And her whole claim from...
No, because that would be back to her filing her lawsuit. I just think she lied on my name publicly.
And he's going to have one massive problem if he misses that. And we've talked about that before in the statute of limitations. You have two years, one year, depending on the time that the alleged conduct happened to file your lawsuit. So if he goes back to the time of the first thing she says that was defamatory, the response will be that was three years ago or four years ago, whatever.
You are past the statute of limitation. So you have lost your right to bring any type of lawsuit against me whatsoever. It's a good question, though. It's a great question. But to answer your question in Virginia, no.
We actually have a two-parter from the next listener. This is from Lola in Canada. Lola needs her own show. Lola's Lola. Yeah, yeah. Okay, there's a theme. She needs her own show and podcast where they just let her talk for 50 minutes into a microphone. But let's play the first part of her question.
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Chapter 3: How does the defamation lawsuit against Candace Owens relate to the Macron family?
It really does help a lot. It's so much more fun and interested. And then he says, open brackets, and I would have felt that way without Ryan and Taylor. Ryan being a reference to Ryan Reynolds. Blake's husband and he finishes with a smiley face. Now, Blake responds in a long text.
She lays out the fact that she felt his comment on her having a lot of passion rather than actual feedback was dismissive. When it came to Ryan and Taylor, she said this, I'm the luckiest person. She didn't say person, but I can't say it. On the planet, to have them as my dance moms, level stage moms, they are embarrassingly effusive.
That said, they are my most trusted partners and the people I go to first with anything creative I touch. Later in the same message, we get this. Have you seen Game of Thrones?
I have never seen an episode.
Oh, and you claim to be a nerd, but okay.
I mean, I'm not that level nerd. I don't dress in like Comic-Con and stuff like that and like go LARPing in the park.
You have a seven foot statue of Superman behind you and your dog is named Clark Kent.
It's a 12 foot statue, but let's keep going.
Which you had repainted so that the Superman was black. You are a nerd on another level, honey.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of celebrity influence on legal cases?
Think about the things that you say. We always joke if there is a group text message there's always two group text messages. There's a one group text message, and there's a side group text message about one of the people in the original group text message. And so that's the same thing that people in the jury will realize.
But the other side is going to say, this is when they're having their truest, cleanest, most real thoughts. This is how they believe. This was a manipulative game. This is the consummate mean girl. This is Regina George and her friends trying to destroy... Justin Baldoni. It's going to be a clash of her credibility.
And what we worry about as trial lawyers is when it turns into a clash of credibility, what it stops becoming about is the underlying evidence. And that's when it becomes an issue that they're more worried about Tay-Tay's credibility than they're worried about. Did the actual facts actually happen? And that becomes a problem.
I'm just thinking about this. So in order to explain this, the metaphor that's being used and how it damages the defense. Are they going to have to explain the plot of Game of Thrones? Because I've just had to do that for you a little bit.
Yeah, you're exactly right. Because if I had Taylor Swift to understand, I'd have her explain it. You know, we'd sit in front of the jury. What does this reference mean? Tell us a little bit about this. And good lawyers will be digging into all that stuff and looking for the metaphors, looking for the colloquialisms. They'll be looking for information that could influence the jury.
It is as simple, believe it or not, Anushka, when we are picking the jury, we might be looking for Game of Thrones fans. You know, looking for somebody who has said, we want this person on there. They will understand the reference. They'll understand how mean they're being. That's how much these lawyers will put into something as simple as that reference.
And that's why we say your credibility goes on the stand. So it might seem like something simple, but something like that could sway the entire case.
Yeah, but to Lola's point of what she's asking, the inconsistency that she's referencing is this article that came out, which was supposedly supposed to have been leaked by Taylor Swift's camp. Oh, I just got the reference. Oh, the song. You know, for a real smart man, you can be real slow. That's a song. That's a song. Yes, granddad, you can get that on the jukebox. Gold star for Marcus.
I get it.
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Chapter 5: How do social media dynamics affect public perception of legal matters?
We have more.
Sean is a lawyer and a certified fashion diva. What was the legal strategy behind the slapstick comedy of showing up in the exact same fit? Diva, you said.
Lola just became my favorite person. With all due respect, I did not hear the rest of the question when she said certified fashion diva. I need to hear it again. All I heard is Lola call me pretty. I didn't hear anything else after that. Was there any way I could hear the question?
We have it again. Sean is a lawyer and a certified fashion diva. What was the legal strategy behind the slapstick comedy of showing up in the exact same fit?
So this is a reference to them turning up to mediation and they're both dressed in olive green. And I thought this was a great question to you because me and you have spoken at length about the level of thought and detail that is put into outfits, colors, cologne, you name it.
And you in particular, I mean, I'm not going to give away all of your secrets, but you in particular are very attentive when it comes to presentation. So they turned up both in kind of olive green, very neutral tone outfits, which unfortunately ended up matching. Can you talk through the thought process that you go through when picking outfits for clients and for yourself?
Because I think that's some of the most interesting stuff.
It is. And I'm glad Lola it's. An interesting question. I didn't say great. It's an interesting thought.
Can I just say this? Because we are compiling a list of Seanisms and he has this... Anytime you ask him a question, he goes, that's a great question. I can't hide my emotion. He goes, John Q. Public. And then he goes, well, what happened was... So, yeah. And if anybody has any other Seanisms, do send them in because I got a little list going.
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Chapter 6: What role does credibility play in high-profile trials?
This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Andy Virta. No nyt on energiat kohdillaan. Ja sähkösopparit! Oomi.fi. Mutkattomasti mukana. Myös yrityksille.
Let's go on to the Candace Owens and the McCrons case. Reminder, the McCrons, that's the French first family, are suing right-wing influencer Candace Owens for defamation. She has repeatedly claimed that Brigitte McCrom was born male and transitioned to a woman in her 30s. In fact, she's regularly repeated the claims on her podcast and her many social media channels.
And in March 2024, she stated that she would stake her, quote, entire professional reputation on her belief that Mrs. Macron is in fact a man. That's a direct quote. The Macron's say this is a far-fetched fiction. They have repeatedly denied everything Candace has said.
If you want more on that, please go and listen to the full episode we did with the Macron's lawyers where they answer all of our questions head on. But we have a really good question from Kate from Australia. Hi Anoushka, love the potty, being with you guys from the beginning. I had a question about the Macron situation. I don't really understand what the big deal is if the allegations were true.
So what if she used to be a man? Isn't that her decision? If the uproar is over the fact that it was hidden from the French people, I kind of think that's the last thing that people should be worried about. I am sure politicians hide much worse things. Anyways, if you have any further clarification on this, I'd love to hear it. Keep doing the amazing and entertaining work you're doing.
Big love from Australia. Brilliant question. Had this question so many times. What is inherently defamatory about saying that somebody is trans? Like straight off the bat as an answer, the allegations that Candace has made are very, very layered. It's not just saying that she transitioned. It's saying that she stole somebody else's identity. It's saying that they're lying to the French people.
If you pull directly from the Macron's complaints, you can see some of the other stuff that Candace has said. It says, quote, she then...
escalated her rhetoric falsely alleging that the macrons are part of a very small group of elite oligarchs who routinely practice homosexuality and paedophilia believe in baphomet that's a satanic deity and worship a transgender deity that controls the world this is yet another baseless inherently implausible claim obviously as well practicing practicing which is a weird way to put it practicing homosexuality isn't
defamatory either but we can hear some of the other stuff that's in there incest she has claimed that potentially Brigitte and Emmanuel are actually related there's a whole list of stuff and the complaint is very very long and it really goes through every single thing that she said and why they're filing for defamation my question to you Sean is if she hadn't made any of those other allegations and she just said I think Brigitte Macron was born a man and transitioned in her 30s would they still be able to file a defamation lawsuit
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Chapter 7: How do fashion choices impact courtroom dynamics?
And I just want to add to that about cognizable damages. You have to prove your damages in a civil lawsuit. And when we spoke to Tom Clare, who is the Macron's lawyer, who's filed the lawsuit in Delaware against Candace Owens, He made really clear what Brigitte and Emmanuel have said their damages are in the wake of everything Candice has said about Brigitte Macron.
they get asked about this at events. I mean, imagine going to an event and having a friend or a colleague or somebody you're just meeting for the first time want to ask you about this, or even somebody who doesn't say something to you about it, right? You walk into a room of 100 people and you have to know that there are people in that room that are wondering, is this true?
And there's another layer onto that because they say in the complaints, defendants have subjected the McCrons to a campaign of global humiliation, turning their lives into fodder for profit driven lies. So they're saying there's damages there with Brigitte because she's been on a global humiliation tour. That's been part of her damages.
But on top of that, they say, you know, Candice has monetized this content. She's on multiple different platforms where you can monetize content. And she was also selling merchandise. She was selling t-shirts that said Times Man of the Year with Brigitte's face on the front. So there's an extra layer there. I think I'm correct in saying this, Sean.
They don't have to prove motive for what Candice was doing to prove actual malice. but they have included that extra layer. So when they're telling, well, this is what they told me in the interview, when they're explaining to the jury what was going on, they will not only say what Candace has done, but why she's done it. You're spot on. Okay, so our next question is from Emily in the UK.
She didn't want to send a voice note, so I'll read it out. She says, you talk about the defence of being a bad journalist as a defence against defamation. Is there a legal definition of a journalist or can anybody use this? I think this is a fantastic question. Sean, can you just unpack... What she means when we say we've talked about the defense of being like a shoddy journalist before.
New York Times versus Sullivan, even though it says New York Times versus Sullivan, is actually a case in Alabama. It happened in the 1960s. It was dealing with everything that was going on with race issues in America. A gentleman by the name of Sullivan was a commissioner down in Alabama.
He was trying to, you know, this is when we're talking about busing schools and things are going on and segregation and things that were end up happening. Well, there was an editorial or an article written about what was happening in Alabama, what was happening with Mr. Sullivan. And the New York Times put several inaccuracies, things that were just wrong inside of this article.
OK, they just put just some stuff that was just wrong. Well, Mr. Sullivan sued the New York Times. He got like a $50,000 verdict, $50,500 something. He got a big verdict against him. They were all happy. Well, New York Times appealed this all the way up to the Supreme Court, and our Supreme Court unanimously said, Uh-uh. Journalists can make mistakes.
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Chapter 8: What lessons can be learned from the legal disputes discussed in this episode?
There's really not.
We all talk about, there's not a legal definition of a journalist because for Christ's sakes, it's involving everybody on social media. If you go on your TikTok right now, everybody is giving a story. Everybody is talking about things. Everybody is saying things. So there's not a legal definition of a journalist.
Well, I wonder if there will be some sort of enshrined or entrenched definition of a journalist at some point, because when we were at the Diddy, well, I'm assuming so, because we are entering a world of newsfluencers and they don't ring fence for credentialed media in the US.
And I've told you a million times when we were at the Diddy trial, it was like there was the old guard, traditional media, and then there was the new kind of influencer journalists who were doing their own reporting, unchecked, And that's only going to continue to grow because it grows profit as well.
So don't forget, we talked two weeks ago about a YouTuber was sued by Nicki Minaj, who was offering herself as a journalist. And Nicki Minaj won. So even though I'm saying people are just on social media, public figures can still file lawsuits against YouTubers. Because remember, defamation isn't limited to just being a journalist.
Now, what we talk about is the reason that journalists are the ones who are usually sued is they have the larger platforms. They get out to more individuals and they usually have more money backing them.
And so when we're filing lawsuits, I'm not going to file a lawsuit against John Jackson living in Minot, North Dakota, who lives in his mom's basement, who said something nasty about Donald Trump. Trump's not filing a lawsuit on defamation to get him to get a dollar thirty five. Now.
If John Jackson works for the Wall Street Journal and wrote a defamatory article about Donald Trump, then he's like, oh, there's money there. That's what I'm going to file the lawsuit against. So don't think the journalist title is what causes the bar for being sued. It's talking too much and utilizing that actual malice standard against a public figure.
Well, that was a thoroughly enjoyable episode. I love these questions. If we didn't get around to your question. I do like these questions. Yeah, they're good. If we didn't get around to your question this week, please keep sending them in because we'll do more of these where we scoop up all of the questions into one episode. Sean, thank you so much for being a diva.
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