Chapter 1: What challenges does Lucy Carpenter face as an atmospheric chemist on a remote island?
Meille Akria-eläinvakuutuksessa on tärkeää, että lemmikilläsi on mahdollisuus parhaaseen hoitoon. Eläinvakuutuksemme tarjoavat sopivan turvan kaikenlaisiin tarpeisiin. Sinä valitset vakuutuksen laajuuden, me tarjoamme maksuttoman etäeläinlääkärin sekä nopean suorakorvauksen klinikan kassalla.
Keitetään kahvit. Mikä ihana lause. Saa hengähtää ja unohtaa hetkeksi huolet ja hommat. Siinä mieli virkistyy ja sydän kevenee ja kuulee maukkaimmat jutut. Tai saa vain hetken olla ja nauttia. Arkea ikä kaikki. Ja se on hyvä niin. Eloveena. Täyttä eloa.
Hello! We begin today in the mid-Atlantic on the island of Sao Vicente in Cape Verde, a place of trade winds and lava fields where the air blowing inland has spent days travelling over open ocean. Clean air, the kind that atmospheric chemists dream of. Atmospheric chemists such as Lucy Carpenter, professor at the University of York, who studies how chemical interactions impact our climate.
Lucy was one of the founding scientists behind the Cape Verde Atmospheric Observatory, established on Salvatente in 2006. It was measurements at this site that paved the way for a significant revelation that ozone loss is not only a human-made problem. The chemistry of the sea has an impact as well.
She discovered that for various reasons the ocean actively changes the chemistry of the air above it, and in doing so can influence ozone, methane, aerosols, clouds and ultimately the climate itself. Today the Cape Verde Observatory has become one of the world's most important atmospheric study sites, while Lucy's career has taken her from that remote island to co-chairing the scientific panel for the Montreal Protocol, the ongoing international agreement to protect our planet's ozone layer.
from measuring the chemistry of ocean air to helping turn the tide of global environmental policy. Lucy Carpenter, welcome to The Life Scientific. Thank you, Jim. Now, you're an experimental atmospheric chemist, so rather than computer modelling from afar, you go out and measure what's actually there. That's right. So often we have to develop or build atmospheric equipment, scientific equipment, because...
It's not available out there. You can't go and buy something off the shelf to measure tiny radicals at concentrations of less than one parts per trillion. So we often get involved in instrument development as well. And yes, go out into the field and measure it there and then. I suspect most of us think of the ocean as something that's affected by the atmosphere, warming, acidification, pollution and so on. But your work flips that on its head, doesn't it? It shows that the oceans are actively shaping the chemistry of the air above them. So what's going on?
You're absolutely right. We think of the ocean as this vast sink of things like CO2, carbon dioxide, but it does emit gases as well. And maybe that's been somewhat overlooked. It's quite hard to get out there into the open ocean. We all know the ocean is full of salt and there's a whole bunch of marine biology that's quite active. So they can act to produce aerosol particles that can influence clouds and influence the oxidizing capacity of our atmosphere as well.
We mentioned ozone. We're going to be talking about it quite a lot today. So it's worth getting a reminder of exactly what it is, because this molecule is both a protector and a pollutant, isn't it? That's right. So 90% of ozone in the atmosphere resides in the stratosphere. The stratosphere is the upper. Is the upper. So that's around 10 to 50 kilometers above our heads. That's not a fixed zone, but depends on temperature and latitude. So that's where the ozone layer is, the protective layer that protects us from harmful solar UV radiation.
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Chapter 2: How did the Cape Verde Atmospheric Observatory change our understanding of ozone loss?
Olen ollut tommoisena. Olin koko ajan myyntiä. Olin lähtenyt paikalliseen kouluun ja tykkäsin kaikkia asioita kouluun. En oikeastaan tiedä, mitä halusin tehdä. Meillä oli erittäin hyvää kemisteriä, joka teki niitä vanhoja koulujen demonstraatioita, jotka ehkä eivät enää tapahtu. Säädettiin potasioita ja vettä. Luulen, että se saa minun kiinnostukseni kemisteriin menevään.
So that's what I ended up applying to do at university. Right, well you did. In 1988 you headed off to the University of Bristol. I gather your studies got off to a rather inauspicious start though.
They did indeed. I don't think I was a natural in the laboratory to start with. So on my very first chemistry experiment in the labs, I ended up in A&E because I still have a slight scar actually on my finger. It's where I tried to put a teat on a burette and rather enthusiastically managed to get the glass into my finger. So I was never going to make an organic chemist, someone who was in the lab making chemicals, but I did like the...
The physical side, physical chemistry, the mathematical side. And you say things picked up after that accident. Certainly you ended up graduating with a first. You went on to do a PhD in atmospheric chemistry at the University of East Anglia and then stayed on as a postdoctoral researcher. And this is when you started looking at the effect of tropospheric halogens on ozone. Now, as you mentioned, the troposphere being the lowest layer of the Earth's atmosphere. First of all, perhaps you can explain what halogens are.
Suurimmat halogenit ovat fluorina, kloriina, bromina ja iodina. Ne ovat erilaisia muotoja, esimerkiksi inorganisia muotoja. Olemme kuitenkin kuulleet hydrokloriikasta, HClista, ja inorganisista halogenista, jotka ovat volatileja ja olevat gas-fasassa.
to organic halogens, also volatile, also exist in the gas phase. So the organic halogens just being those that have carbon in them? Yes, so they can exist in a variety of forms, solid, liquid, gas, and a huge variety of reactivities as well. Well, you got involved with the project to measure organic halogens at Macehead Atmospheric Research Station on the west coast of Ireland.
Yes, so there was an idea that there could be some halogen chemistry in the troposphere. We knew that it would involve, if it was happening, more reactive halogens, iodine and bromine, but really very little was known. So I built a system to trap the halogens and we coupled it to a
gas chromatic mass spectrometer, a well-established way of measuring molecules, and put it on this station. It was part of a big experiment. In fact, I think it was one of the UK's first big consortium field experiments. So it was a great experience. And lo and behold, we found a much richer mixture of halogens that had been seen before. And at that site, you look out to Macehead and you can see seaweed everywhere.
Ja näimme hienoja taitoja halogenissa, jotka tuli olemaan syntyneiden takia. Ja ei vain se, koska se oli konsortointiprojekti, ja paljon erilaisia labeja tehtiin paljon erilaisia asioita. Aerosolipuolet, kun se oli lauantaina ja päivänä, näivät, mitä olimme usein kutsuneet, jotka olivat isoja taitoja uusia partikkoja, pieni nanometrin määrä aerosolipartikkoja. Ja se tuli olemaan, että kemistiikka liittyi iodin-suomalaisuuteen.
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Chapter 3: What role do oceans play in influencing atmospheric chemistry?
But this was surprising. You weren't expecting to see these molecules. I mean, it was incredible. It was like nature telling us, look, there's a tidal cycle here. You guys can figure out what's going on. So that was nice. But, you know, these molecules are pretty reactive. So the sun comes down and breaks that bond through photolysis, photolytic decomposition. And then once you have that, your halogen atom is split off from the molecule, undergoes other chemistry.
Ja myöhemmin, ei minun ryhmäni, mutta toiset ryhmät löysivät, että nämä pieniä partikkoja voivat kasvaa oikeissa tilanteissa ja ne voivat vaikuttaa tuuluihin. Ja sitten sinä todellakin olet ilmastonvaikutuksessa. No, vuonna 2000, Lucy, sinä johtasit Yliopistoon, johon sinä edelleen olet nyt. Ja niin me menemme Cape Verdeen. Miten idea tuli ensimmäisenä tehtäväksi tutkimustilanteeseen?
Well, I was approached by some German colleagues that had the idea of having a station there. The main person who thought about it was an oceanographer. So he was really interested in that region, partly because a whole load of Saharan dust gets deposited in that part of the ocean every year, and that can stimulate ocean biological processes. So he approached me as someone who was active in this ocean air research and said, you know, we found this station. It would be a great place for you to do your research as well. What do you think?
So you go over there to recce the site. Do you remember that first trip to Salvesente and what made it such a perfect spot for the station?
Minä muistan sen hyvin selvästi. Silloin oli tuuli, joka kulminoitiin hukkaan, ja muutama kymmenen metrin jälkeen oli se paikka, jota olimme katsoneet. Se oli lavaluokka, johon olimme katsoneet, koska Cape Verde on täynnä valkanoita ja aktiivisia. Sieltä pystyi katsomaan ocealle, johon olimme katsoneet, johon olimme katsoneet.
Siellä maatuntijat laittavat lämpöä, joka ei ole nähnyt maata kolme tai neljä päivää. Ja he tekevät sitä 95% koko ajan. On paljon paikkoja, jotka haluavat lämpöä, mutta puolivälikin he eivät saaneet sitä. Se oli hyvä, koska se oli kuin olla kaupungissa, vaikka kaikki asiat, jotka menivät läpi. Maatuntijat laittavat lämpöä, ja se oli tropiikissa, joissa on hyvin pieniä paikkoja.
The tropics are great. They're like the engine room of the atmosphere. All of this sunlight and water vapour creates a very rich chemical environment there. And really what we wanted was a kind of station that could be used for shorter term field campaigns, but as a baseline to understand what was going on. You mentioned the hut and the dirt track. This really was site construction from scratch, wasn't it?
Se on oikeastaan. Meidän piti laittaa voimakkeita. Meidän piti laittaa suunnitelman. Olimme todella onnellisia, että meillä oli mahtavaa tukea Cape Verdean Met Officella. He auttivat meidät tekemään sitä. Meidän piti laittaa labin. Meillä oli lab-kontainereita, joita tehtiin Yhdysvalloissa. Olimme tavallaan rakentaneet labin Yhdysvalloissa ja laittaneet sen. Plugg and play, melkein.
Ja työskentelemisessä maahanmuuttajalla voi kuulostaa aika romanttista, mutta tietysti tämä ei ole jokainen paradisiallinen lopputulokka. Mitkä olivat suurimmat vaikutukset, kun te olitte saavuttaneet projektiin? Projekti saatiin saavutettua melko nopeasti, taas kiitos kaupungin ja kollegien tuotantoon. Mutta ainoa ongelma jokaisella maahanmuuttajalla, joka on hyvin maahanmuuttajalla, on power cuts. Ne olivat constanttia power cuts. Meillä oli backup-generator. Meidän piti laittaa backup-generatorin backup-generatoriin. Se oli todella tärkeä asia.
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Chapter 4: How has the Montreal Protocol impacted global environmental policy?
Joten täytyy olla todella kiinni ympäristössä, jotta nähdään ozoonien vahvistusprosessit tapahtuvat, tässä tapauksessa halogenit. Olimme siellä, ja päivittäin, kun aloitimme määrittää ozoonia, voisimme nähdä tämmöisiä päiväkysymyksiä, joissa ilma tuli ja ozooni pyrkii. Ja sitten se tuli taas ylös yöllä, koska se on käsitelty.
We expected that to some extent because it is destroyed by photolysis, but when we applied our models to it, we found that almost twice as much ozone destruction was going on than you'd expect from the traditional chemistry. So we were lucky that we had measurements from the University of Leeds on the halogen oxide radicals, and we were able to quantitatively tie the two together through models and say, you know, due to the presence of these halogen molecules, we're getting 40% more ozone destruction than you would expect without them.
In fact, in terms of the numbers, your data was showing that about 15% of all ozone destruction was down to this marine effect. That's right, which hadn't been seen before. It was a serious breakthrough, of course, with big implications for existing climate models that hadn't taken into account halogen chemistry. Initially, there was some pushback on this.
Kyllä, se on oikeastaan. Ja nyt, lähes 20 vuotta sitten, se koko kemisaatioskrimi on olemassa modelissa. Joten vuosien aikana se kemisaatio on tullut esiin ja näyttänyt, että te teette paremman työn yrittämällä simulaatioa. Jos sisälset tämän kemisaation, niin tietenkin näet erilaisia tuloksia. Kyseessä on poliitikkoa tulevaisuudessa ja poliitikkoa ennen. Se muuttaa, miten ajattelemme, miten ilma on kehittynyt.
And I'm wondering whether part of that initial pushback was about people being nervous that this might play into the hands of climate change deniers. You know, insofar as your work is saying ozone loss isn't just a human-made problem, the sea is also partly to blame.
Maybe. I think more scientists are very conservative bunch, as we should be. So I think that that is part of the academic process, if you like. Well, Lucy, I'm going to take a break from the science now, because you were also busy developing another interest alongside your research, duathlons.
I have small experience of duathlons, having done just one myself, I'm not quite at your level, but basically it's a twist on the more familiar triathlons, but without swimming. So it's running, cycling, running, is that right? That's right, yeah. It's a triathlon for those that can't swim very well, or don't have time to swim, yes. And as you know, the final run is quite painful, it's like you've got broomsticks for legs. Oh my word, oh god, yes.
I remember the one and only time I did it, all the contestants had numbers alphabetically. So I was Al-Khalili, number one. I remember doing my cycling, the middle bit, and some child talking to her mum as I was cycling by somewhere towards the back. Mummy, look, that man's number one, and look how far behind he is. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Mahtavaa, todella. Mielestäni olin melko laulava lapsi, mutta kuten useimmat ihmiset, sinulla on lapsia, sinulla ei ole aikaa harjoitella 30-vuotiaana, joten minulle se tuli 40-vuotiaana, kun olin yli 40-vuotiaana, ja sitten mennä takaisin. Olin moderatiivisen hyvän rannan, moderatiivisen hyvän syklistin, lapseni aloittivat syklyä, joten olin syklykohtainen, ja se oli...
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Chapter 5: What are the implications of HFCs and their alternatives on climate change?
What's it like being part of that process? Initially very scary, I would say. Our job as co-chairs and as the scientists is to assess the scientific information that's relevant to the protocol and present it the best we can. But there's all sorts of other things going on, the diplomacy, the politics, but it's fascinating, absolutely fascinating. So I am very much enjoying the journey.
Just last year you presented the panel's findings at the 37th meeting of the parties, as it's called, in Nairobi. What did you tell the assembled world representatives there? Well, first of all, the scientific assessments are made every four years. The latest one will be this year, so we're in that phase of the assessment.
So I presented the major results that will come out of that, along with the issue that's probably the hottest issue right now for the Montreal Protocol, or one of the hottest issues, and this is emissions of a gas called HFC23, which is fluoroform, which is a very potent greenhouse gas and has been increasing in the atmosphere for some time. Generally speaking, how responsive do you find different nations are to the scientific advice that you and colleagues are giving?
I think they are responsive. It's a different matter as to what their national priorities are and how they interact with that science. So, I mean, I'm a complete novice in all of this and learning. There are other people, seasoned goers to the Montreal meetings, who see the way the diplomats are talking and understand what it is that's behind the scenes. So, there are national priorities that underlie these responses, for sure, but some of them have an enormous appreciation and understanding of the science, which is great.
Are you optimistic then that those in power will make changes for the better?
HFC23, jota aiemmin mainitsin, on hot topic. Emme ole vielä nähneet toimintaa siitä, mutta jatketaan pyytämään tietoja heille. Toivon, että lopulta voimme antaa heille tarkemmin tietoa, jotta voimme tehdä toimintaa. Kaikki päätökset ovat tehty konsensussa, joten se on haastavaa. Mitä tapahtuu, jos maailma ei toimita tuomaan HFC23-tietoja?
We will see adverse effects on climate. It's already contributing about 15% of the radiative impact of all HFCs. I mean, there was a scientific study that showed the take-up of HFCs, particularly by developing countries, because of the continuing air conditioning and refrigeration needs, was just going to go up exponentially. Because the world's getting warmer. The world's getting warmer and more populated, and developing countries in some cases are getting richer as well. So, you know, off it went.
Joten jos emme tehdä sitä, niin seuraavaksi näemme lämpimän vaikutuksen. Tämä on globaalinen lämpimän mahdollisuus noin 14 000 kertaa enemmän kuin CO2. Hyvä. Toinen asia, jota pitää huomioida. Olemme tekemässä parhaamme. Olet työskennellyt projekteja, jotka osoittavat melko yksinkertaisia oikeuksia klimatioon. Kerro minulle toisella puolella, mitä sinulle antaa toivoa?
I think there's lots of reasons for hope in a climate sense. You see some of the things that are going on, for example, with solar and wind and electric vehicles and batteries and everything. There's some big change happening down the road. In the atmospheric side, the pollutants we work on
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