DSPN - Devlin Sports Podcast Network
Should Refs Stop Warning Players & Just Penalize? | Reading Your Comments
05 Jun 2026
Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Welcome to the DSPN. The Devlin Sports Podcast Network.
It's mailbag time, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Qualifying Finals Weekend. Also on the podcast today, Lester Fanganukul joins us. A real treat. Watch that interview. We get to speak to him for about 25 minutes, James.
Yeah, yeah, it was great.
And he covers everything, doesn't he? He covers everything about playing over in France, compares the top 14 to super rugby, positional changes for himself. Comes across as just a real humble, nice dude too.
One thing I was really interested in that one was him playing loose forward is not new. He was actually doing that quite a bit over in France. This wasn't some sort of random decision that Rob Penny made.
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Chapter 2: What feedback do fans have about the Super Rugby CEO's appearance?
This was backed up by evidence. So I'd highly encourage you to watch the film. We've had a few good ones this week, haven't we? Jack Mesley, Corey Jane.
Corey was excellent as well, yeah.
Just one of the most honest people. Ben Mine from the Brumbies as well. Les Kiss. Les Kiss. Future. That was Les' first media op with New Zealand media since being named as the future Wallabies. Oh, that's a privilege, Sam.
He was great to talk to. Corey Jane as well is one of those guys who just... Honestly, you feel like you could just bump into him somewhere, sit down at a pub and have a beer and talk with him. And that's actually who he is. He's just such an easygoing kind of guy, but a really good rugby brain. So all of that aside, DSPN, click the subscribe button for us on YouTube, please. That does help also.
Changing Sheds episode today. If you want to be part of that, text DSPN to 3598. Myself and Jamie, we actually... Talking today about, actually, it's actually, talking today about the South African list of injuries versus the All Black list of injuries. We go into that in depth. Obviously, some other stuff about the qualifying finals.
But that's a really huge topic of discussion, those injuries, which hasn't really been attended to by the world rugby media at the moment, especially now that we're getting close. We've both been accredited for the...
rivalry tour so that's all up and running we're going to be there obviously jamie will be there the whole tour um exciting news obviously that we can present the kind of coverage that we're going to present for you from over there um but yeah just that list of south african injuries we go into in depth on changing chains if you want to be part of that mailbag time and I don't know how I did.
Maybe I left it on the charger. I normally do it off the iPad, ladies and gentlemen. So it's on the old dog and bone today. So bear with me because I'm going to have to fanny around going through different emails and things. A couple of books of Leviticus to start with, two of them in actual fact, and appreciate again the fact you've taken so much time to write such a long epistle.
James Butt came through on email, and here it is. It's a big boy. It's got four or five different pages worth. Look, it's a really good read from James. And a couple of the points that he makes is simply about the overwhelming negative rugby media narrative surrounding super rugby. And his comments simply that it kind of fuels itself.
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Chapter 3: How has crowd attendance changed in New Zealand stadiums?
I'm choosing all of that.
But that's just me. And also, that's what the media is going to be choosing as well, because all that stuff you mentioned at the start, that's what's going to be in the sports pages on Saturday and Sunday morning and Monday morning as well.
Not down on the NRL. The NRL is brilliant. It's a great competition. But when it comes down to it, if you honestly are choosing the Titans versus St. George over the All Blacks versus South Africa, I can't help you. Okay, I just can't help you.
You're going to have a chance to do that this season because when the All Blacks play Ireland in July, that's kicking off at the same time as Warriors versus the Dragons just down the road. So same city, same population that they're going for, and then you're going to have a stark contrast between which of these things is going on.
I feel it's an unfair contest when you're talking about the All Blacks because the All Maybe this might change over the next two or three generations, I don't know. But the All Blacks have always been the biggest box office drawcard in New Zealand.
But this is the thing, Martin. Yes, you can make a fair comparison between the Warriors and Super Rugby and the NRL and Super Rugby and that's fine. But it's when this discussion has progressed to rugby is dying and rugby league is taking over New Zealand.
it's not okay that is not happening and it's not happening when the all blacks will happily schedule a game on at the same time as warriors knowing full well that it's going to rate five times as high and they're going to get twice as much of a crowd again sorry that's a fact
next book of leviticus here is from the fobby 6424 uh and again as we go through it's a huge epistle this one um five or six different pages um essentially the the message is about super rugby needs to go mpc needs to take its place um there's many many reasons that this guy is given it for this um He says he's worked in administration overseas. I'd like to know where that is.
I'd like to know where it is because you've obviously got a very extensive argument here. I thought the main point out of this one is just simply that you can't base what happens in New Zealand on anywhere else in the world. And I think that's a really sensible thing. Mark Watson brought up a couple of weeks ago about let's base it on the Irish model.
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Chapter 4: Why do the All Blacks outrate the Warriors on Sky?
Artie coming off the bench in what world, question mark. Great comment. Great comment. Because when you sit there and you actually think about it like that, I think what Mark was adhering to, though, was just the workload on the guy. And at the end of last year, you could see a drop-off in performance. And now he's played continuously since the end of last year in Japan, and we're getting back.
So by the time that the South African tour rolls around, and then into the November, he could have been playing for two years solid. At some stage... But he chooses to go to Japan. He's got to take a break somewhere. Where do we give him a break? Or do we just throw him in number seven deep end in July tests?
I thought it was sort of a wacky suggestion from Wado the other day. On his list of wacky suggestions, it's probably not even on the first page. It's a compliment, mate. I can see the logic in what he's saying, which is perhaps we kind of need to think a little bit outside the box in terms of the way we use our best players. And the Springboks have done that.
I mean, you can't tell me that Malcolm Marks is not the best hooker in South Africa, and he plays more tests with 16 on his back.
He might be injured, actually. Oh, add him to the list. He might be another one to add to the list, yeah, yes.
Yeah, but in saying that, look at what the South African have done with the bomb squad. And yes, it's their prerogative and they've used it to their abilities. But if we were to take our best players and make sure they're on the field at the back end of the game with fresh legs... Yeah, I could see that. I don't agree that we put him on the bench as like a long-term strategy straight away.
But at the same time, the All Blacks are going to require some new ideas going forward.
Jamie, are you suggesting that a guy like him may not in future be playing 80 minutes for us? That he may play 40 or 50 minutes and it just depends on where we play him during the game?
I think at the moment I'd like to see what sort of shape he comes back in or what sort of levels he's at after what you just mentioned, which is, yeah, like 18 months.
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Chapter 5: What insights did Lester Fanganukul provide about rugby in France?
Melbourne so much. I know that if you live in New South Wales, you hate Queensland.
Did you not know that? No, I didn't, mate. No, this is why Canberra exists. Because they couldn't decide. They hated each other so much. They had to create a whole new city halfway between Melbourne and Sydney to make the capital.
Right. Yeah. Okay. I just thought the natural rivalry was the origin rivalry.
No, it's very much like a North Island, South Island kind of vibe with them.
Wow. Okay. Yeah. Okay. You learn something new. This one I love as well. I'm not going to read this one in case it's one of those ones where I end up saying something stupid.
If they continue with selecting the top six, they should goodbye to the top two and let the team third to sixth play a playoff where the winners will face the top two in the semi, making it more important to secure a win in a playoff and a great incentive to chase the top two. No more lucky loser.
Yeah, I agree. Good idea. I like it. However, I... I've had some off-the-record discussions about this because, of course, you look at the way that they've done the playoffs in the last few years. It's basically because they're trying to get as much money as they possibly can out of the broadcast deal. And so they need every extra game is...
The lucky loser concept, though, doesn't fit in with professional sport.
Ideally, yes, you'd have a top six with the top two having a bye week and everything. But I think that just under the broadcast deal that they signed, they need to produce X amount of games for the year. And the only way they can do that is with this playoff system.
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Chapter 6: How are injuries affecting the All Blacks and South African teams?
The most challenging refereeing situations that you get in a low-grade player are the guys who just don't talk and don't explain stuff. And what happens is you get like 100 penalties a game. And if they don't tell you what's going on, you're never going to know. And you never get an idea of what they're looking for at rucks, at the breakdown offside. You should know, Jamie.
You know the rules, mate. No, because it's always different. That's the thing, is that every referee's got a different interpretation about stuff. That's what kind of one of the unique things about rugby is that when you go into a situation... One guy one week is going to look at something and go, that's fine. Then one guy the next week is going to say, that's a penalty.
I'm going to argue against this. I'll present a football argument. There used to be this football argument that in the first couple of minutes of a game, you can tackle the hell out of whoever you want. You can put your studs up. You can boot the crap out of them because the ref's never going to yell a card or send you off in the first minute. And I wonder whether in rugby that's the same thing.
I'm looking at a breakdown and I'm a player. I'm going to infringe and infringe and infringe until I get told not to infringe. Is there that mentality going on?
Absolutely. Well, in that case, the ref's got to stop that, doesn't he? You're testing the referee out. And the thing is, he'll tell you. If you go in and just dive over the ruck and infringe, and he'll go, look, you can't do that. If you go over and do it the next week, and the guy says, yeah, no, it balls out, okay, that's the way the game goes. You have to be told this stuff.
You don't know what... Is that rugby's problem, Jamie? That it's interpretive like this? Well, I'll put it... I'll just make it a real-world situation. If no one actually tells you what the rules are, how do you know if you're breaking them?
Well, you know the rules are because you know going over 50k, you're breaking the rule, right? But you'll do it. Everyone drives 55, 60 until they get stopped and go, I was only doing 60. it's still you're breaking the law, right?
So you're still... See, this is the thing I just... I wonder whether or not a game would flow better if the referee just said right at the start, I'm going to penalise you if you're offside.
This isn't like being on a road where there's a speed limit. This is an offside line where if you're standing there... this much is a penalty, and the next week, that much is a penalty, or this much is a penalty. That's just the way it is. You have to find out. So as someone who plays with varying degrees of referees every week, and again, once again, there's no knock on the referees we get.
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Chapter 7: What are the implications of the current playoff system in Super Rugby?
With a second division underneath it.
Yeah, exactly. Because that's why French rugby is one of the reasons why French rugby is so strong because they have a fully professional second division underneath it with promotion and relegation. And they have enough teams and enough financial clout behind it. And yes, the French model is...
like very different and it's run by billionaires and things but if you can at least approach that situation because i know the other topic of conversation up in english rugby is what they call the ring fencing of a book of the the premiership and there's been a lot of pushback against that because they're saying that it will exclude uh teams from coming up it's like
We went through this, what, in the late 90s on that. Again, I feel like this is a really black and white issue. It's obvious that you want to ring fence it, make your clubs as strong as possible, follow the American model of the way professional sports works where you lock teams in, you give them like a clear financial path to security and do it that way. But that's just me. That's my opinion.
I know there's a lot of people probably watching this up in the Northampton going, what's he on about? So I'd love to know why it doesn't work, why they haven't done it yet.
Yeah, so again, let us know, because the idea, when you look at it on paper, because straight away, as soon as I saw this, I went through and I had a look at all the divisions.
I looked at all the teams and went, OK, well, you could take six from there, three from there, four from there, and then have this first division or Premier League, which is all of these teams, and then a second division, which is still teams from every country. How exciting would that be?
And the ability that they have to cross borders and travel and pay 50 quid to get on a boat, go to France and watch a game, or 100 quid to go and watch your team play in Italy or whatever. So... But just interesting as well, considering that down here, so many people are thinking, let's remove all of that. Let's go back to an MPC model.
Whereas up there, they're saying, you know, we've already got that and it's not quite. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Time for discussion. From South African Rugby Magazine. And I wanted to bring this one up with you. Again, this isn't came through on the feedback, but it's just something that I thought we should add to Mailbag.
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Chapter 8: How do referees impact game flow and player behavior?
Rolling out the fog. Sorry, the new bit isn't a final that anyone saw. Yeah, there you go.
I love this. Lachlan was more entertaining, but he only had basic rugby chat. Jamie, on the other hand, is a bit dry. Okay. But is by far the best guy on the show talking rugby. So you get a brick batch, you get a bouquet. Are you a dry person, Jamie?
That's just life. I mean, dry, I mean, yeah. Well, I mean, thank you for the feedback, first and foremost. I think that's a really nice case of balanced feedback. And it plays into what I'm trying to bring to the show, which is a bit of balance. because we want to have an environment, which you just alluded to, where we can respectfully disagree on things and going forward.
And you and I can do that, us and the audience can do that. Watto's definitely gonna do it. But I think that what I want to be doing here is just providing a good bit of knowledge. I've come in with 10 years worth of covering the All Blacks. If you're saying I'm dry, well, you know what? I'm new at this whole thing myself. I'm still learning.
I don't want to go flying off the handle straight away. Perhaps as we get into the season, I'll get a bit wetter for you. How about that? I know I'm going to have... I hope not. I'm going to have a few adventures over in South Africa, and I'm hoping you can follow along with that. So, yeah, at the moment, I'm just really stoked to be here. We're enjoying it, mate.
And I'm glad to hear that you think I know what I'm talking about because that's probably the best compliment I've had all year.
So that wraps up Mailbag. And again, the message is simple. Love the feedback, love all your comments, love the interaction and engagement and all of that. But I just want, you know, just think about if you're in the room with us here and you're in the room with the guest there, are you going to be sitting in that chair live in front of the cameras and saying what you're saying online?
That's all. You ask yourself that question, because if you are, I want you to actually email us and come and sit there if that's the case. If you're going to be like that, come and sit in the studio with us and then actually let's do it face to face. Yep, I'm happy to move over.
So, you know, and again, it's not like I don't want you to express everything that you're actually feeling or thinking or if it raises the emotions and you want to get uptight or whatever about it. I love all of that as well. But yeah, you know, there's a big, wide, beautiful world out there and we've got other things in our lives which are, you know, more important than doing this.
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