DSPN - Devlin Sports Podcast Network
Was That a Try? Breaking Down the Reds-Chiefs Chaos | Jeff the Ref
12 May 2026
Chapter 1: What controversial officiating incident occurred during the Reds vs. Chiefs match?
I can see that their pictures are not overly clear because there is bodies in the way, but I think there's one final angle at the very end where it's behind the player and you can see him go over the chalk.
Les Cassidy almost stopped Fraser McWright from giving a post-match interview because they were so angry about treatment from the ref.
He says, no, it's held up. Then he goes to the TMO and he says to the TMO and then it's all just like, oh, yeah, no, sweet as, I'm off for a pie at halftime.
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John Walker wins the 1500 metres gold medal at the Olympic Games.
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DSPN, Jeff the Reftimer for Jeff McGregor from WebWonks joins us. A couple of bits of business as always. Click the subscribe button for us, DSPN YouTube channel. We're on our way to 30,000 subscribers. Need your help? We've got a couple of thousand to go. I'd like to tie all that up before the end of the month, if at all possible. So click that and text DSPN to 3598.
You want to be part of Changing Sheds every Friday. Myself and Jamie Woolf. who's joined us alongside here on the programme. Full time, we sit down and we exchange a few news bits, opinions, views that you don't get on the normal stuff that we put out. Plenty of it every day, including today, of course, press conference from Dave Rennie from this morning from NZR HQ in Auckland.
And we've had a good discussion about that as well. So hopefully enjoy those. Geoff, welcome back, mate. G'day, mate. How you doing? Always good. Lots to get through today, so let's not fanny around at all. You're on a water diet, though.
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Chapter 2: How did Marcus Playle's decisions impact the game?
All right, let's kick it off. Instances over the weekend to talk about Crusaders Blues to start with. 57 minutes. There's no yellow for the intercept attempt by AJ Lamb here. It's not, you know, similar to some of the ones where we've seen with the old... The most obvious is the hand up, where you've got the big loopy pass and the hand up. And so that one gets an instant yellow.
This, to me, at real time, didn't look as though it deserved a yellow.
No, but I thought it was a good instance of refereeing. Angus is just on top of his game at the moment, and he can see that in real time. I think other referees might have pulled that up, and then they might have investigated it, and then it might have gone to a yellow. But he just knows what's going on in the game, recognises that he's in proximate...
you know to the where the ball is he sort of pushes it back up to himself I mean it could have been an intercept the Crusaders do have an overlap so it could have gone against him but I just think that it's the right decision for it not to be a yellow for it to just be an honest attempt a lot of the time we don't see that and then they over egg the laws so I think this is great refereeing exactly what we want to see it's intelligent stuff
67 minutes, same game, 20-minute red card for Curtis McDonald on Pera Feta. Again, I don't believe there's malice in this, but it's reckless, it's clumsy. Pera Feta lands really badly, as you can see. That's got to be a red card. That's the whole point of it, isn't it?
Yeah, well, when they come in with it, they say it's a high degree of danger and there was head contact. But again, I would say that Angus is in the right position to make this call. He knows exactly what's happened immediately. He takes command. He gives clear instructions to his ARs and to his TMO.
And I think that when we look at the Reds-Chiefs game, that's going to be sort of the counterbalance of what potentially good refereeing looks like. So I think that these two instances show a man with a high degree of skill making the right decisions, seeing the pictures in front of him in quick time. It's happening so quickly. He's just got it on slow-mo. He's so plugged into what's going on.
It's great to see.
Well, 68 minutes. And this was the one that Jack Sexton and he calls it cynical and he says he gives a yellow card straight away. And I was just wondering, as a referee, you've just sent somebody off for a red card. Same team. Now you're giving them a yellow card. Now they're going down to 13. He's not phased by it at all. Again, he's just reffing what he's seeing.
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Chapter 3: What was the Reds' reaction to the officiating after the match?
I just fail to see how this is a yellow card. Jimmy, the difference gets beaten. Runs back, though.
affects the tackle he's on his feet he's got you can see his hands so what more is he meant to do there well i think as a coach you would actually use that clip as what to do when you're counter-racking and getting the ball back because he does everything right yeah that's right that's what i felt like at the time it's poor officiating he didn't do anything wrong if anything the waratahs player doesn't release and so when he comes in for the second pump he's then i think done for um being off his feet or whatever he says he does
Gets back. You can see he's shaping. He knows what's going on defensively. He makes the tackle, stands up. He's on the right side of the tackle. Clear air. There's clear air.
Clear air with his hands.
That's exactly what you ask for. And it doesn't matter if it's a millisecond of clear air. It's all it's asked for. And then he goes back in. And the Waratahs player...
I think this is a really good example of the value that Tava Tava Nawai brings as a rugby player. The fact that, look, him and Tupai are really good at doing this. And every All Black fan is thinking, this guy off the bench being able to effectively turn over like a loose forward. So...
And the rest of us are looking at that going, that is copy book of what you're meant to do and he gets a yellow card. So I think Jamie was right on that one. As far as the Nareki yellow card that's upgraded to a red though in the 59th minute, and you have a look at this one, the only thing that bugs me about this is the inconsistency.
I just don't see what the difference is with what Zan Sullivan did a couple of weeks ago. Again, it's the ugliness of a shoulder to the head. And maybe they're watching this program and they're upgrading yellows to reds because of what we're saying. Obviously I'm being stupid by saying that.
No, we are a must watch for the super rugby brains. Yeah, clearly, no doubt. And so I think what happened here, well, the Zahn-Zullivan situation was that we both disagreed that there was any mitigation in there. And I said at the time it was that magic word mitigation. Allows them to wash it all away and give just yellows. This week they said there was no mitigation.
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Chapter 4: What were the key refereeing decisions discussed in the episode?
I thought the most interesting thing about what Shag was saying is that they invest heavily in players and coaches up in Japan, but who's actually thought about the officials?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, there's none of the world's top officials are reffing up in the J-League, are they?
No, well, look, I'm about to take a sabbatical from June through to the end of September, so I'm more than happy to take a flight up to Japan, take the family with me, and give them a little bit of coaching and training. So if anyone from Japan in that decision-making power, you're truly more than happy to do it. But just with regard to Jamie Joseph, coaches like to have a spit.
That's what they do. We all like to hear it, and it gives you a job on the week after to have a commentary about it. Certainly does, mate. I think, you know, some things go against you, some things go with you. There was no mitigation. It should have been escalated to a red. Too bad for you. That's why we have a 20-minute red. It doesn't penalise you for the full game.
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Past performance is not an indicator of future performance. Product disclosure statement available at generalfinance.co.nz. All right, we go to Reds Chiefs, Marcus Plale, and extraordinary afterwards that Les Cassidy almost stopped Fraser McWright from giving a post-match interview because they were so angry about treatment from the ref. Last week we talked about, who had a shocker last week?
Ref-wise?
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Chapter 5: How did the TMO's involvement influence the match outcomes?
These are competent individuals. But the quality of their refereeing is going to be different. And it's the same as in any institution or any organisation. You're going to have your stars. You're going to have your journeymen. You're going to have the guys that are coming up through the ranks. That's just happening in this microcosm.
And so potentially that's what you just have to accept, that you might not get the best referee.
This is super rugby, mate. Come on, this is a professional sport.
Yeah, but sometimes the best of us have a bad day. I'm not defending him. I think it was, you know, poor decision making I mean he was at the back of the ruck how could he not see that there was two knock-ons there there's two knock-ons elsewhere and then gives confusing instructions gives them a warning and then says but it's not for the repeat infringements what are the warnings for?
Look I think this next one 41 minutes right on half time is the one that the Reds should be angry about this is the Udu try and if you have a look there's a really clear angle here where he does score Yet there's no intervention at all from the TMO. Now, you keep saying if it's grey, stay away. This is a try right on halftime. This is where the TMO has to come in, doesn't he?
Well, it's interesting because he says, no, it's held up. Then he goes to the TMO and he says to the TMO and then it's all just like, oh, yeah, no, sweet as I'm off for a pie at halftime. It didn't follow any of the normal sort of way of working when they go upstairs. And so it's Glenn Newman. And there's been a couple of comments in the past about me not being very fair to the referees.
Well, I'm piling on Marcus. I'm giving support to Angus because I think he's done a good job. Well, Glenn Newman's been on this podcast a number of times where we've talked about the TMO being in the wrong. And I think there's another example of where this is the wrong decision. They would argue otherwise, I think. That's what they would say. Pictures are clear.
Well, look, I can see that their pictures are not overly clear because there is bodies in the way. But I think there's one final angle at the very end where it's behind the player and you can see him go over the chalk. They don't look at that vision before they make the decision that it's held up. So they're just lazy on it.
To me, it's one of those things where you're talking about a really tight game. You're talking about a game of consequence. And you're talking about a moment of serious significance in this game. Post 40 minutes, so you're playing extra time at the end of the first half, and this could be game-changing.
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Chapter 6: What were the main arguments regarding the yellow and red cards issued?
There's nothing wrong with that. Oh, there is. No, what I was saying, there's nothing wrong with having hyperbolic sort of extremities. But in terms of the decision, yeah, no, it was wrong. There is something wrong with that.
50 Minutes, the Samsoni Mall, because every week we've got to look at a mall. and is this legal how he enters then he goes past the most the hindmost foot then he gathers the ball and he powers on and powers over since we've started doing this segment i look at every mall now and i have no understanding of any of it apart from it all looks illegal to me
Well, you know, I'll say this. In the Crusaders Blues game, what a terrible game. I lost $50 to my, you know, Richard, my mate Richard.
How could you bet on the Blues? I can't believe that you bet on the Blues.
He's a Cantab and I'm an Orkner. We've got a standing $50 bet. I'm down so much to him. I've pretty much put another roof on his house. But that aside, defensively, both the Crusaders and the Blues were able to stop a maul. So it is possible to be done. That is there. In terms of this particular instance, look, he comes from the back of the line out. He joins the maul.
He does dart around the back of it. Yes, he does. So it's not like it's deliberate side entry. He does come to the back. Then he goes to the side. Then he goes to the other side. He secures the ball. There's a penalty advantage against the Reds either for side entry or for potential collapsing.
So you'd be a very brave ref to then turn that over because maybe he was marginally not at the hindmost. I also think that there is some benefit of the doubt that the ref should give to the player for positive play. Right? They've already got a penalty.
It's illegal, mate.
The Reds have a penalty advantage against them. Are you really going to get into that semantic... I think he was still... He was behind the high most. He just sort of goes around it. I mean, we've talked about the hands and the right.
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Chapter 7: How did the refereeing standards compare between matches?
Okay, and then the final try, which sealed the game, Satiti, because Tumang Allen is off, they're down. They're down. Their scrum is weakened. They're down. Satiti try off the scrum, clinches it. As Harry Wilson dragged to the ground and held here. Now, you've got to watch this again, people, because he's not playing his number eight role. He's actually on the side of the scrum.
He's flanker.
But Jurgen, he unbinds, and then he falls down, and he's just held there.
Yeah, so you raised it as, like, obviously he's being held down.
Well, it looks that way. And Satini runs straight through the gap.
I asked the question, how did he manage to get into that position in the scrum? And then you look back and you can see that he drops his bind, which is an old flanker trick from way back. And that's why I love the scrums, because there's so many dark arts taking place.
You've got to be a good referee to see this because you'll see they'll pop their head up, they'll look around to see, oh, is it going blind? And then they'll drop their bind and then, oh, see you later, mate, can't do that. So that's why he's in that position because he's dropped his bind, he's come around, and then in terms of he's taken himself out of the game as far as I'm concerned.
I don't know that he necessarily would have stopped anything because he can't get up in that time to turn around and be in the defensive line. So it's because he dropped his bind that that took place, that he was in that position. Arguably, he's disrupting the back of the scrum for the nine to play the ball.
If I'm a Reds fan, I'm saying he's been held down there.
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Chapter 8: What lessons can be learned from the officiating in Super Rugby?
9.4.
Okay.
I love the fact you've quoted 9.4.
9.4 is the game that other players, defending players, can't play the ball. They can't, well, you're in the air, but they also can't do it when it's at the back of a rock. So you're being subjective as to when you're saying the ball can't be played. If I don't have the ball, I can't play the ball, right? So I'm going to take that off the cards.
Soon as the ball goes back to ground, then it's contestable again. arguably you could say that it's not contestable, it's in the air, you could jump for it.
I don't think it's illegal, not only because I explained the laws, you can go back to last week's segment to look at that, but if it was illegal, then when the South Africans did it, it would have come and they would have said, no, you're not allowed to do that, and here's why, 9.4. It would have been pinged in the previous games where we've seen this. So I disagree that that's the case.
I did try to make a phone call. Admittedly, on the way here today, I've been very busy the last week.
Do you think that's interpretive, though, again? Would a referee be brave enough to call that?
Well, as I said, there are areas where you could be deemed to be, if it is the pre-bind, which is one of the points that are being made there, there potentially is that. You can't do that. But because it's in the air, it's not deemed to be that. There's also the flying wedge aspect.
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