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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis, Charli XCX. Thanks for having me, Bella. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
Well, today we're sort of coming off like a major heat wave in London. And nobody really has AC here. So you've really got to like dress warmly. for that and you got to be like prepared um to kind of be getting a bit hot and flustered so my um clothing choices for this past week have really been based around weather in London um but I wanted to just be I don't know like
comfortable as i'm like lying on your beautiful sofa feel relaxed we've also been talking a lot about like the angle oops and like how that works with clothes and things like that so yeah I I just I went for something easy my like Levi's and some old like uh vintage guest shoes and this holy t-shirt yeah I love those studded shoes they're fun aren't they yeah they're really good I don't oh
Yeah, they're cute. Also, I love wearing a heel that is actually so comfortable to run around in. And this is exactly what these shoes are.
Yeah, they're great. Elegant too. Thanks. And you're a superstar in the world of music, film and fashion. And as well as a new music style, you've created a way of using clothes as part of your performance that has captivated an audience of young kids and ex-punks like me. And in 2025, you headlined Glastonbury and won the Ivor Novello Songwriter of the Year. You've been on the cover of Vogue.
You're not one to rest on your laurels. And I wondered where your restlessness comes from.
Great question. It's interesting. I think my restlessness, first of all, comes from just this innate passion to always be making something. I feel really, really lucky that I... get to make things all the time. And to be honest, I don't really have hobbies, you know, outside of what I do. Like my dream day is either kind of being in the studio, making a song or making something with
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Chapter 2: How did Charli XCX get started in music?
But I rarely do that. I've done that once in my life, I think, really often. I just need these things. It's more than just a kind of enjoyment of them. It's like I need to be pouring my emotions into those outlets, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Because I came to your music through watching the film Bottoms and I heard the track, Yes, No, Okay. And I loved it so much because it's so funny and it's punk. And it reminded me of when I feel ambiguity, which is rare. And you seem like the bard for young women being both scathing and sincere. And I wondered, how did you know how to articulate those conflicting states of being?
You know, it's funny.
It's like, I don't think I really know anything. Like when I'm... making music, I'm never really thinking too much in advance about what I will be saying or what I want to say. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. I think for me, making music is very much kind of like when you have a thought, the thought comes, you know, and then you say it out loud.
And yes, sometimes you can like trace back why you might have had that thought because of your circumstance. But like, I don't know, like generally speaking, it's like the thought just comes out, right? And for me, it's like when I'm writing songs, it's like... I don't know where the personality comes from, except it's just from me.
And it's just the things that are kind of within me that I say out loud. And I think I've always had this relationship with music and with any kind of like creativity in general that like, for something to be fun and funny doesn't necessarily mean that it also can't be like deeply serious and important.
And I think there is still a bit of a sticking point around that, you know, and that's not to say that I'm sort of anti like work that takes itself very seriously. I also really enjoy, you know, that too. But I think something being fun and funny and silly even at points is also totally valid as like a serious way of working.
And I kind of like bringing those things together, bringing that sort of attitude with humor, with something more kind of introspective and fun.
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Chapter 3: What role does fashion play in Charli's artistry?
sparkly kids dress that I just like absolutely loved and um it was probably like actually some sort of like toys r us situation um the peak of fashion you know and uh it came with these like little like lacy white gloves very trad actually um But I remember being really, really into that when I was younger and always wanting to wear it.
And there are definitely some cute pics of me floating around in that. Yeah.
Was it like a kind of identity thing that you...
craved this thing to consolidate how you felt about yourself or you know I I really don't know I I mean I definitely wasn't thinking that deeply about it when I was like three um to be honest um I think it was just the classic like uh you know when I was younger I just thought like that it would be like fun if my job was like being a fairy or something, you know, like seeing that film and,
a fairy tale about those two girls who discovered fairies at the bottom of their garden, but nobody else could see them. And I remember like I wanted to have that experience like so badly, you know, and I think my whole like vibe was like just trying to like get close to that kind of a thing. So I think that's probably why I was into the dress.
But I remember later in life, probably when I was like 16, 17, I remember, like, after I signed my first record deal, I bought this pair of Vivienne Westwood red felt platform boots. And I remember so well, I was desperate to have them. I went to the store on Coddart Street, and...
they didn't have my size and it was like the last pair and they were like a size too small and this I'd never really like bought anything um you know from a designer before this was like my first sort of you know like doing that um and yeah they only had a size too small but I was so desperate to have them that I bought them anyway um
And I would wear them and they were so painful, so uncomfortable. Like my toes sort of like crossing like this, you know, because they were just too small for me. But I remember feeling like when I wore them and even just like when I was in the shop buying them, I was like, I feel like this is a piece of my life.
identity that it's like I don't own it yet but I'm about to and yeah those shoes I just felt so you know it's like I think when you wear Vivian you like just immediately inherently feel like connected to like the history of her world. And I definitely felt that when I was wearing those very painful, small shoes.
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Chapter 4: How does Charli describe her creative restlessness?
And so you start there and then you're ready for the next step. bit of your look and it's really empowering and yeah yeah because you you've called your style Disney grunge that which is such a great description I think it's wonderful because you possess this grace and freedom in how you move which is a bit like a cartoon animation I wondered if you had a cartoon character who you identify with
Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
I feel like me describing my style as Disney grunge is very like me on MySpace, like typing away on my profile. I'm not sure I'd describe it like that now, but I think it's cool that you kind of feel that it still relates. Gosh, in terms of a cartoon character, I don't know.
I mean, I feel like I probably always related most to, even though our fashion sense is very, very different, I would say I probably most related to Daria as a cartoon character just because she's so, I don't know, she's just kind of so like... which is like my favorite vibe ever. But we do dress like very, very differently. But I think her sense of style is very cool.
Because I think, I mean, I always, I've been quite obsessed with cartoons my whole life and I feel they have these amazing qualities of, kind of, it's so compressed and there's so much intensity with them that I'm always, I sort of honed in on that phrase, which I think conjures up a lot. And your lyrics are confident and body positive and Things like, I'm a hot girl.
And my generation is so self-effacing. And I think we were brought up with a lot of shame around our bodies. And how do you feel free to say that kind of thing? It seems so, it's so fantastic.
Well, you know, it's, for me, it's like I... I love sort of writing songs like that because almost in a way it's like a mantra. It's like, the more you say that stuff out loud, the more you like really feel that in your bones. And I also think, you know,
when I sing songs of mine that make me feel really powerful, I can feel that they make the kind of audience who I'm performing them to feel powerful as well. And I really like that, but I will say I,
feel a lot of shame about uh you know my body and how I look sometimes and I think it's you know this sort of endless kind of pendulum swing between like feeling unbelievably confident to feeling unbelievably insecure um and I think um that is sort of the harsh
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Chapter 5: How does Charli view competition in the music industry?
And so, yeah, with the last record with Brat, especially thinking about clothing and thinking about performance on stage, I really didn't want to feel like I was sort of dressing up as a pop star and going on stage.
I really just wanted to wear clothes that I would wear to a party at my friend's house and then perform the music in those clothes and really exist in that kind of a wardrobe environment. And yeah, I think people could really relate to that.
And it was so cool actually seeing a lot of the fans who were coming to the shows were kind of like making their own versions of those outfits and honestly being, taking a lot of time and really like being like quite thrifty and like making like really cool, like interesting versions and interpretations of some of the things that I'd worn.
Great. It must have been so fascinating to see that. Because your new single is called SS26 and shows you walking in a fashion show and also sitting in the front row next to Karin Reutfeld. And you're a great wearer of clothes. And I'm interested that this kind of traditional format is still appealing and has power. And what is it you like about it?
about fashion shows yeah well I actually think um one of the best places to hear uh music is at a fashion show or even when I'm just on TikTok and I'm watching like models stomp to songs, it just, there's like a fantasy there that is just, I don't know, it like transports me. Like if I ever see like, I don't know, like,
Naomi or like Shalom or like Alex Kansani like stomping along to like an epic song and there's like a great TikTok edit like I don't know like it's so satisfying to me and you know having been to like a few fashion shows and like seeing like how the music sort of can really like set this tone.
Like it's really, I don't know, it feels, especially when the set is really great as well, it's really exciting. And, you know, you also have to just sort of sit still and listen and watch. It's not like you're dancing. And I mean, you can kind of dance a little in the chair and stuff, which is cool, but it's like, you're really kind of focused on it.
You're focused on the atmosphere and you're focused on the clothes and you're focused on the, you know, the way that the models are moving and, Yeah, it's kind of like a unique experience, I suppose. And also, you know, I've never walked in a runway show ever. So that was also sort of like a fun fantasy to do that in a very low pressure way where I controlled every element of the edit.
Yeah.
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Chapter 6: What was Charli's experience working with John Cale?
we sort of decided okay like okay let's sort of like dress for the feeling of the album let's like dress for the feeling of Paris you know and in that um came that kind of experiment I mean I will say I always like to uh I always think about like the clothes that I wear when I record because you it can really, it can change my mood and it can change the song.
I mean, it's like, if you're wearing like Phoebe Philo, you're like gonna make a cool song. You know what I mean? It's like, because the clothes make you feel effortless. You know, if you're wearing like, or at least if I'm wearing like some like,
old kind of t-shirt from like back when I was like 16 there's like a coziness to that that maybe can make me write lyrics that feel a bit more internal and uh kind of reflective or something and you know if I'm wearing like the highest of high heels it's like that's maybe when a song like Hot Girl comes out.
So yeah, I feel like clothing could really change the mood of my writing process at least.
I love that because I thought that makes complete sense to me. And it's so interesting to hear, especially a young person, talk about understanding how there's a rigor in clothes or it can bring you a sort of tension of where you need it to be.
Yeah.
And... You write brilliantly about deep feelings and how uncomfortable they can be and their impact emotionally. And yet you come across as a securely attached person. And I wondered where do you anchor yourself when you want to get close to that edge?
Yeah.
Well, gosh, I don't think anyone's ever called me securely attached. So I'll take that because, yeah, I think I – it's like I know myself, but I also can sometimes be – completely out of control of my emotions and just my my mind to be honest and I can really uh spiral and so to be honest it's not hard for me to kind of get there to write those kinds of songs because
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Chapter 7: How does Charli define her personal style?
And he said, well, treat it as a game. And that just completely transformed it. And I thought, okay, it's, you know, that's fine to have these feelings and actually you can play and it can stimulate me to look harder or do something, push myself or enjoy myself or just enjoy their feelings.
yeah their outfit instead of shrinking away right right and I think you know like sometimes um competition can kind of like yeah like drive or inspire you a little bit as long as it's like in a relatively like healthy way I mean I think like in my sort of friend group there is like a lot of that going on but I think the thing that's
still cool at the same time is I think everybody kind of like shows up to support each other's work um and I think that is like the key yeah for for that whole thing it's like you gotta kind of like show up for your friends and support them especially if you think the work is great but even if you don't it's like that's kind of what like being a friend is about and I think
sometimes when you're sort of friends with a lot of creative people that element can sometimes get a bit lost which is a shame because actually it's like so fun to just like support like the people that you love the most and kind of like go on their journey with them and be really excited for them yeah
I love the video Boys, which you co-directed in 2017. And it's so tender and cute with all the endearing qualities that boys have. And it's not reductive either. And you've friendships with film directors like David Cronenberg and Jim Jarmusch. Are you thinking of directing more or is acting more liberating for you?
You know, I... Gosh, like... I don't know if I have the... I mean, I definitely currently don't have, like, the sort of skill level to direct a... full length feature I mean watching friends of mine do it it's like just the stamina that you have to have to do that is something like so hardcore and admirable and yeah it's really like you've got to be locked into that for a long time like
you know, pre-production, shooting it, post-production, the edit, like, then, like, especially nowadays, like, dealing with, like, studios, like, dealing with, like, how you're going to sell it, how you're going to market it. It's, like, so much. And like, I've had my own experience with that without directing the entire film. And it's already like, oh my God, I'm at capacity.
So, I mean, I have so much respect for directors. I think to direct a feature film is something so ambitious, especially, you know, at a time where it's really kind of like hard to get the resources that you need to do that. Even these sort of like major, like iconic film directors from the past, some of them can't even like get like the funding to make what will undoubtedly be a great film.
I think that the industry has just changed so much in terms of, what studios want, like from my sort of naive outsider perspective. But yeah, so I mean, look, never say never, but I think I have a lot to learn is what I'm saying. Like, I think that's part of the reason like I love being on set so much, like is getting to watch
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Chapter 8: What is the significance of Charli's new album cover?
Yeah, but no feature directorial debut just yet.
Because you worked with John Cale on the soundtrack for Wuthering Heights. And was that your idea to approach him? Because I find him totally fascinating and a genius. And I was interested that you did too. And being from a different generation, how was it to work with him?
Oh, my gosh. I mean, John is just like the coolest guy ever. Yeah. Me and my friend Finn were working on House, which is the name of the song that John's on. I did this kind of like outro thing and the track itself was really kind of quite like haunting and bewitching, I suppose. And I remember like I had watched the Todd Haynes Velvet Underground documentary.
And I remember John had said in the documentary that, when he was thinking about the viola and the strings specifically for the Velvet Underground stuff, he really wanted them to feel both elegant and brutal. And he said it, he phrased it in this like really amazing way. And that phrase really stuck with me. And when we first started working on this song House,
I was like, wow, this kind of sounds in a way like my interpretation of those words. And so I sort of thought like, do you think I could reach out to John Cale? Like, you know, like I kind of like just started like asking the question out loud, like really not sure what the answer would have been, but we basically found a way to get in touch with him.
And we swapped phone numbers and we agreed that we'd have a call in a few days or something after we had initially got in touch over text. I remember the day that we were supposed to speak. I was having a really bad day. I was, like, my very, like...
unregulated self very like up and down all over the place crying like I can't remember what was going on but I just remember it was like a very stressful bad bad emotional day and I totally forgot I had this call with John and I was sat with my husband at my my place and Suddenly my phone started ringing as I was, like, mid, like, you know, ugly cry, like, full on. I picked up the phone.
It was just this voice on the end, like, so kind of gravelly and deep and... And he was just like, hello. And I was like, who is this? And he was like, it's John. And I was like, oh my God, John Cale's calling me like mid breakdown. And I kind of had like John, like, I don't know. I kind of told him, I was like, I'm having a bad day, John.
But like speaking to you on the phone is like, made me feel so much better. Like, thank you for calling. And it was just, yeah, it was quite cute, you know?
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