Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. The most powerful person in the Trump administration next to the president is someone you may never have heard of or seen. That is until yesterday when a long article about her was published on the Vanity Fair website. And it surprised a lot of people because behind the scenes is where she typically wants to be. Now she's all over the news.
She's Susie Wiles, President Donald Trump's White House chief of staff and the first woman ever to serve as a presidential chief of staff. The article was written by my guest, Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple, who managed to do 11 interviews with her over the past year.
He'll tell us about what she had to say about subjects ranging from why she says Trump has an alcoholic's personality, even though he's not a drinker, The deal she made with Trump that he'd end his revenge tour in 90 days, he didn't. Her take on several members of the cabinet, including Vice President J.D. Vance, who she says has been a conspiracy theorist for 10 years, and how she justifies U.S.
strikes on Venezuelan boats that have so far killed 87 people. Whipple's piece, titled Eye of the Hurricane, will be published in the magazine's winter issue in January. Whipple is the author of the books Uncharted, How Trump Beat Biden, Harris, and the Odds in the Wildest Campaign in History, and The Gatekeepers, about White House chiefs of staff.
Before we hear the interview I recorded with Whipple yesterday morning, let's listen to a mix of clips from Trump and Wiles.
I want to thank the great chief of staff, most powerful woman anywhere in the world. They say she got the most powerful woman in the world. One phone call and a group of people. I better not say it. I was going to say one phone call and the country is wiped out. But we're not going to say that because we're a peace loving nation. We are a peace loving nation. Susie Wiles, where are you, Susie?
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Chapter 2: Who is Susie Wiles and what is her role in the Trump administration?
There she is.
The people that came before me, all men, as you know, had a dinner for me in November last year. And they said, it's so stressful. You'll be so tired. Be sure you pace yourself. Be sure you, you know, are good to yourself and all that kind of thing. And I thought, what am I getting into? I might not even sign up for this. And I'm older than all of them. Not now, but when they were in this job.
And I have not had that. I keep thinking that's going to happen to me. I love coming to work every day. And I'm not just saying that. I love coming to work every day. I love Donald Trump.
Chapter 3: What insights does Susie Wiles provide about Trump's personality?
I love working for him and all my people around us. They're fantastic. We couldn't have assembled a better team. And they are so devoted to our cause. It's a joy to be there.
So Susie Trump, do you know Susie Trump? Sometimes referred to as Susie Wiles, Susie Trump. She's the great chief of staff. They don't use the word chief of staff anymore because the Indians got extremely upset.
Chapter 4: What was the deal Susie Wiles made with Trump regarding his revenge tour?
But now the Indians actually want their name used, which is true. They never didn't want it used. But the chief of staff, and she's fantastic, she said, we have to start campaigning, sir. I said, I won. What do I have to do?
Chapter 5: How does Susie Wiles view the cabinet members in the Trump administration?
Already? Already? He said, we have to win the midterms, and you're the guy that's going to take us over the midterm.
We've been together a long time, and I'm so lucky every day that he trusts me to make decisions and to make recommendations. He doesn't always listen or do what I say. I don't want him to, but I'm always heard, and that's all you can ask. That is really all you can ask. And he values your advice. He does. I hope he does.
Chapter 6: What is Susie Wiles' stance on U.S. strikes against Venezuelan boats?
So those clips of Suzy Wiles are from her interview last week on the streaming show The Mom View on YouTube. The Trump clips are from last June and then last week at his rally in Pennsylvania. Chris Whipple, welcome back to Fresh Air.
Great to be back.
Any reaction to what you just heard?
Well, first of all, how rare is it to hear Susie Wiles's voice? I mean, it's just so unusual, and that's because she has this kind of under-the-radar role in the Trump White House. My other reaction is, have you ever heard Trump speak about anyone else the way he speaks about Susie Wiles? She has a kind of magic with him. It's what Marco Rubio told me is earned trust, quote-unquote.
It's not only because she... ran his against all odds presidential campaign in 2024, but because she has this unique relationship.
What was your reaction to him saying that she's the most powerful woman in the world and with one call could, what did he say, demolish the country? I mean, I can't imagine how she would react to that.
Well, it's Trumpian, isn't it? I mean, it's the kind of thing that she is accustomed to hearing. It's part of this magic that she has with Trump. She takes this stuff in stride. I mean, any traditional, conventional White House chief of staff would be in the Oval Office 10 minutes after a comment like that saying, seriously, Mr. President, look, let's avoid using that kind of rhetoric.
Susie is inclined to give Trump a long leash when it comes to all kinds of remarks that would previously be considered beyond the pale by a president.
She is a very behind-the-scenes person. How did you get access to her?
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Chapter 7: What unique relationship does Susie Wiles have with Donald Trump?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. It's titled Eye of the Hurricane. Whipple is also the author of the 2025 book Unchartered, How Trump Beat Biden, Harris, and the Odds in the Wildest Campaign in History. His other books include The Gatekeepers about White House chiefs of staff. You spoke to Wiles about the U.S. strikes against boats from Venezuela. What does she have to say about that?
Well, she is all for it. She is compelled. support of the president's policy. She insists that these boats, because the CIA can do remarkable things, she insists that these are drug dealers on these boats. I asked her, I went to see her, I think, I'm pretty sure it was on November 4, just last month. And on that day,
She'd just come out of a meeting with the president talking about the Venezuela policy and the lethal strikes on boats. And she said words to this effect. He wants to keep blowing up boats until Maduro cries uncle, which, of course, really contradicts the official administration policy that this is all about stopping illegal drugs from reaching U.S. shores and not about regime change.
So I found that a remarkable statement. But she certainly doesn't have any qualms about the policy, although she also makes a somewhat newsworthy admission, which is that she says that land strikes by the U.S. on Venezuela would require going to Congress. Trump has said the opposite, you know, that land strikes could be imminent.
When she says until Maduro cries uncle, it's ambiguous to me whether she means until he gives in and does more to stop the drug trade or if it means until he gives up the presidency and is, you know, replaced.
Well, I suppose you could argue that that's what she meant. That's not the way I took it. It seemed to me, it certainly sounded to me as though they really feel that they could force Maduro out.
And one of the ways she justifies what's being done is that the boats that we fire missiles at are in international waters. Therefore, it's not a war crime. But does it matter if you're shooting people who are criminals? That's not grounds for execution. And might it still be a war crime even if it's in international waters where no country's individual laws apply?
Well, she says a couple of things, and they're not always consistent. But one of the things she said was that we can strike—I mean, I'm paraphrasing now, but the U.S. is entitled to strike even within territorial waters because they're evading detection, and therefore, presumably, they're guilty of drug smuggling. So she said that.
as though Trump could simply go ahead and order these strikes with impunity. But I really did have a very pointed exchange with her about the whole Venezuela policy or the blowing up of boats, these lethal strikes. And I don't think she had a very convincing answer. I mean, we had an exchange about it, and she said, well, we're fighting a war.
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