Chapter 1: What intense characters has Michael Shannon portrayed in his career?
From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Dave Davies. Today, actor Michael Shannon. He understands he's associated with some intense, menacing characters he's played, like Agent Nelson Van Alden in Boardwalk Empire.
I'm a big fella, and I got this giant head, and it's not too difficult for me to seem intimidating, I suppose. But it couldn't be further from what I'm actually like.
In two new projects, though, Shannon plays good guys. He's President James Garfield in the new series Death by Lightning, and he's a prosecutor trying Nazi leaders for war crimes in the new film Nuremberg.
Chapter 2: What new roles is Michael Shannon taking on in his latest projects?
Also, we hear from Ray Sehorne, star of Apple TV's Pluribus. The series has a sci-fi premise, but the themes of the show are more existential, like what is happiness? What's the importance of individuality? Later, Maureen Corrigan shares her list of the best books of the year. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend. This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Dave Davies.
My guest today, actor Michael Shannon, has appeared in nearly a hundred movies and television productions, perhaps best known for playing brooding, villainous or unhinged characters like Agent Nelson Van Alden in HBO's Boardwalk Empire. But Shannon's range is far broader, and his two latest projects find him playing real-life historical characters engaged in noble pursuits.
In the film Nuremberg, he plays the U.S. Supreme Court justice who organized the International Tribunal to try Nazi leaders for war crimes after the Second World War, serving as lead prosecutor in the ensuing trial.
And in the new Netflix series Death by Lightning, he's President James Garfield, who fought against corrupt Washington politicians for civil service reform before being assassinated only four months in new office. Michael Shannon earned Oscar nominations for his performances in the films Revolutionary Road and Nocturnal Animals.
He's also appeared in the films Take Shelter, Knives Out, The Shape of Water, and Man of Steel, among many others, and in the Showtime series George and Tammy. He also formed an indie rock band and has collaborated with musician Jason Narduzzi in performing songs from several albums of the group R.E.N. We'll talk about that. Well, Michael Shannon, welcome back to Fresh Air. It's been a while.
Oh, it's my pleasure, Dave. Thanks for having me.
You know, you've had a lot of roles. And as I said, in many of the better known ones, your characters are unhinged or villainous. In these films, you play not just good guys, but, you know, real historical characters fighting battles to right wrongs, strengthen democracy. Do you think this was intentional to cast you in these roles?
Oh, gosh. I don't know. So much of what has happened in my career just seems like dumb luck, you know? I don't know what got into these people's heads to look my way for these things, but I sure am grateful that they thought of me, you know? I mean, I guess typically with a project like Nuremberg, I think when people hear that I'm in Nuremberg, they assume I'm playing a Nazi and
And when they hear about Death by Lightning, they assume I'm playing the assassin. So I guess it's nice to surprise people.
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Chapter 3: How does Michael Shannon describe his experience playing President James Garfield?
Well, you know, you play President James Garfield, as we mentioned, in Death by Lightning. That's the Netflix series. He was elected in 1880. What drew you to this project?
Well, it started with Candice's book, Destiny of the Republic.
Candice Millard. Yeah, she's been on our show. Terrific historian.
And for anybody who watches the program and gets a kick out of it, I highly suggest you read the book if you haven't already because it's very captivating. And very informative and illuminating. But I find that a lot of people really don't know much about this period.
It's kind of sandwiched between the Civil War and the World Wars and the Depression, you know, which are all, I guess, more inherently dramatic periods. But... I think this period is really worth studying and looking at because the country seemed very lost at sea, as Garfield hints at in his address at the Republican Convention. And it's easy, I think, to feel that way now.
So if you're curious about how we might... get out of this quagmire we're currently in, it might behoove people to take a look at this period in our nation's history.
Yeah, and it's interesting because Garfield was kind of an accidental hero. I mean he was initially going to nominate someone else for the presidency and the convention got deadlocked and people were so captivated by his speech they turned to him. I didn't remember anything about James Garfield.
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Chapter 4: What themes does Rhea Seehorn explore in the series 'Pluribus'?
I'm sure most of us don't. But when I saw you in that suit and that big beard and that long coat and vest and bow tie, I thought, yes, that's the picture we've seen of James Garfield. Talk a little bit about –
physically occupying the character did you grow that big beard i literally could not uh grow that beard even if you gave me five years it wouldn't look anything like that but we had um such a brilliant team of hair and makeup and wardrobe and they just they do their magic you know
Well, I want to play a clip. And to set this up, Garfield was a Republican and the Republican Party had been the dominant party in Washington for years. But it was a party beset by corruption. You know, patronage, employment, self-dealing were kind of the rule of the day. There was no such thing as civil service, which Garfield was determined to change.
And the scene we're going to listen to is where Garfield had been president a short time and his opponents within the party were blocking all of his cabinet appointments in the Senate because he refused to give these corrupt politicians the control of key federal jobs, especially the port collector in New York because that was a big center of money and patronage.
Chapter 5: How does Rhea Seehorn's character in 'Pluribus' confront the concept of happiness?
Anyway, in this scene, there's a bunch of senators and cabinet members gathered in the White House, and they're all arguing with each other because you, as Garfield, are determined to stick with this fight that they think he's never going to win. They think he should just give in and play ball with the machine.
You've been listening quietly while they argue, and then you finally erupt with a stern message. Let's listen.
Gentlemen, harm yourselves this instant, or I will expel you from this building for good. That includes you, Mr. Secretary. Now, I made a vow to end the rot in our government. Spoils, patronage, call it what you want. It's no good. do-nothing, siphoning taxpayer money for jobs that don't even exist.
Chapter 6: What existential questions does 'Pluribus' raise about individuality?
Elected officials brazenly peddling their influence at auctions. This is not how democracy endures. This is wrong, and all of us know it. This is our fight. One day, years from now, Each one of us will be judged by what we do in this moment. How will they talk about us? I wonder.
And that's our guest, Michael Shannon, in the new Netflix series, Death by Lightning. That's a powerful speech.
Chapter 7: What is Maureen Corrigan's list of the best books of the year?
You want to talk a little about that moment?
You know, it's interesting. I know we're not talking about it right now, but it draws a comparison to something that Robert Jackson says in Nuremberg when he's talking to the Pope.
That's your character, right?
Yeah. Yes. He tells the Pope, you know, you validated the Nazis, and how will you be remembered? And, you know, sometimes I wonder... how much people are really concerned about how they're remembered. In a sense, why would that be important?
Chapter 8: How do the discussions in this episode reflect on current societal issues?
I mean, you're gone, right? But it's a shame that you have to appeal to people's ego to get them to do the right thing. It shouldn't really be ultimately because you're concerned about how you remembered. It should be more that you're concerned about the future of the next generation and the generation that follows.
But if you can bend people at their ego, then you might as well take advantage of it, I guess.
So let's talk about Nuremberg. You play Robert Jackson, a Supreme Court justice who is the lead prosecutor in this trial, trying former Nazi leaders for their crimes. People of a younger generation might not be as aware of this as you and I. But he also really kind of organized the whole thing. And I thought we'd hear a clip here.
You in this clip are speaking with the army psychiatrist who has been sent to the prison – where these captured Nazis are being held. His job is to keep them from committing suicide, for one, and then to pursue some combination of therapy and also building psychological profiles to assist in the prosecution. And in this scene, this is well before the trial gets underway.
You're telling the psychiatrist you want him to get information from Hermann Goering, the highest-ranking Nazi, about their defense strategy. And the psychiatrist is resisting. The psychiatrist, he's played by Rami Malek, speaks first.
You want me to be a spy?
I want you to do your duty for your country.
No, you want me to break doctor-patient confidentiality.
I think you already have, doctor. We read every report. We need more.
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