Chapter 1: What does Josh Owens reveal about working at Infowars?
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This is Fresh Air. I'm Dave Davies. Our guest today has a story to tell about what it's like to work in a disinformation factory. It's the one created by this man.
There are dozens of videos and photos of Obama having flies land on him indoors at all times of year, and he'll be next to 100 people and no one has flies on him. Hillary reportedly I mean, I always told people around her that they think she's demon-possessed, okay? I'm just going to go ahead and say it, okay?
You might recognize that as the voice of Alex Jones, the force behind InfoWars, the website, radio program, video streaming show, and podcast known for propagating countless conspiracy theories. Among them, the notion that the deadly school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary was a hoax staged by the government to justify seizing the guns of American citizens.
Josh Owen spent four years in his 20s as a video editor and field producer for Jones and his media company. His new memoir takes readers inside the frenetic Infowars paranoia shop, where Jones constantly demanded that his staff churn out stories of the evil perpetrated by the deep state and global elites, stories based on few, if any, actual facts.
Owens was troubled by the work, but stayed longer than he wishes he had. Because the pay was good, the work was engaging, and while he found Jones a troubled and sometimes terrifying man, Owens still sought his approval. After leaving Infowars, Owens spoke out against conspiratorial thinking in writing and appearing in the HBO documentary, The Truth vs. Alex Jones.
and by providing a deposition in the successful defamation case the parents of Sandy Hook children brought against Jones. Josh Owen's book is The Madness of Believing, a memoir from inside Alex Jones' conspiracy machine. Well, Josh Owens, welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks so much for having me. Jones was based in Austin, Texas.
And I thought to get a sense of what life was like working for InfoWars, we would just go with you on one of these reporting trips that you took. This was one you took with two or three other InfoWars staff members to drive up the Pacific Coast in California and stop at multiple beaches and measure radiation levels with a Geiger counter you were carrying. What prompted this trip?
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Chapter 2: How did Josh Owens get involved with Alex Jones and Infowars?
Well, you know, the website every day had many, many stories. You know, and the idea was you had to generate outrage constantly with these stories. And a lot of the stories were picked up from other news sources, mainstream and more fringe ones. What was the policy for actually attributing the information that InfoWars got? I mean, did they say where it came from?
Well, it depended. On my first day, I sat down with an editor named I believe he was a producer for the Nightly News at the time, which was this newfangled thing Jones was trying out. It didn't last too long. But we were to, if it was a mainstream outlet that reinforced Jones's beliefs, we were supposed to include that.
But if it was anything else, if it was a smaller outlet, maybe something that people weren't necessarily aware of, we were not supposed to include that, which was surprising to me when I was told that. As an editor, it was almost a form of training, like here's what he wants, this is what we should do. I hadn't ever noticed that before in the videos that I had watched online. I didn't realize that
sources were often omitted. But truthfully, the content of any article really made no difference. I don't even think Jones read any of the articles that he would use on his show as evidence to back up his claims. It was only the headline. If the headline could be spun to suit his narrative, that's what he did and that's what we were instructed to use when we were editing videos.
There's one other story I thought I'd ask you to share which kind of tells us how Infowars worked. And that was the day a low-flying plane passed over Austin where Infowars was headquartered. This set Jones into an intense search for a new story. Well, tell us the story.
It was just a normal day. I don't remember what was going on beforehand. I'm sure I was editing some report at my computer. And then all of a sudden, the windows started to rattle in the office. And a rider ran through and said that there were helicopters flying by. So, you know, in the conspiracy world, you think helicopters, you think black helicopters, you think, you know, Fox Mulder X-Files.
So a news producer, he ran to my desk, told me to grab a camera and go outside to film this. So I ran outside and I noticed that he had already gotten on the roof of the building and he was running at top speed holding this telephoto lens out. I didn't see any helicopters. I didn't see anything in the sky. So I came back in, and he said that he'd gotten it, but it turned out it was a plane.
Jones was out of the office that day, and he called in at that time. He called the news producer. The news producer put him on speakerphone, and he was in this manic fervor saying that— He saw a plane. He believed it almost hit a building downtown. This was them trying to make people remember, you know, it was a psychological operation to make them think that 9-11 was happening all over again.
You know, he was being very vivid in his language. He claimed it was an E-4B, which he called a doomsday plane. He was giving these incredible details. He saw the metal rivulets glinting in the sun. And so anyways, he formed this strategy of how we're going to get this out. This is going to be huge news. He said by the end of the day, it was going to be the biggest news in the country.
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Chapter 3: What experiences did Josh have during his reporting trips?
Right. And just to be clear, nobody at Infowars made calls to the military or aviation authorities to ask what was going on?
Let me be clear about that in every sense. No inquiries were ever made in anything. Jones had an idea, and that's what stuck.
So tell us a little about your background.
I grew up in North Georgia. When I got sucked into Jones' world, I was relatively young. Throughout high school, I played music. I thought for sure that's what I was going to do with the rest of my life. After high school, that, as things go, just sort of fell apart, and I was left directionless. I didn't really know what I was going to do. I was a little punk in school.
I didn't think it mattered. I had no intention of going to college. So I was kind of terrified. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know who I wanted to be. I didn't know where I was going. And then at the most opportune or least opportune, depending on at what point I'm looking at it, now it's least opportune timing, I was introduced to Jones' website, InfoWars, and Jones as a personality.
Initially, it wasn't ideological. I didn't know much about politics. I didn't know anything about politics. It was movies that introduced me to Jones. I was watching Dr. Strangelove with a friend. There's a scene where Sterling Hayden starts talking about, he goes on this manic tirade about water fluoridation. My friend paused the movie and he asked me if I'd ever heard of Alex Jones.
I'd never heard that name. So he ran to the bathroom, grabbed a tube of toothpaste, and he showed me the warning label where it said, if you swallow more than a pea-sized amount, call poison control. And he asked me, he said, you know, if you swallow a pea-sized amount and you have to call poison control, how is it that they put it in our water supply and we don't know how much we're drinking?
Well, I didn't even know what he was talking about, so I didn't have an answer. But according to him, this guy Alex Jones did. So that night I looked up Jones' InfoWars, and initially I found a documentary that he had released called Dark Secrets Inside Bohemian Grove, where he and journalist John Ronson had snuck into the Bohemian Club, which was this group of –
It was an all-male meeting of these powerful men in the California redwoods. And it was just horrifying. It was like a mix between the Blair Witch Project and Eyes Wide Shut. So I was just sort of hooked from there.
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Chapter 4: What was the chaotic nature of reporting for Infowars like?
It's will and strength boiling to defeat these tyrants and these globalists. But that said, just like our information is game-changing – The products that we sell, all of them are powerful. And whether it's colloidal silver from 1995, the very best out there, or whether it's DNA force that's now back in stock.
Boy, that's Alex Jones. No questioning his commitment to his gig here. So he was selling supplements. He sold other stuff too, right? Survival gear, body armor, all kinds of things. But he learned actually the trick of selling supplements, dietary supplements from Joe Rogan. Is this right?
That was his intro into that world. You know, Jones' connection with Rogan goes back pretty far actually. The guy – Kevin Booth, who was connected to the comedian Bill Hicks, he produced some of Jones' early documentaries and also produced Joe Rogan's very first comedy special. So there's a weird – I think that's how they got connected.
But Jones saw that it was a profitable, successful endeavor for Rogan and saw it as an option for himself.
So when Jones spent time on the air promoting dietary supplements and all this other stuff that he was selling, how important was that to the enterprise?
Well, when I first started working there, especially when I first started listening to Jones, it was 2008 when I first heard of him. He would sell T-shirts. He would sell DVDs. But he would also encourage his audience to copy the DVDs and give them out for free. I, in my naive state, saw that as like, well, OK. I mean it's not about money. It's got to be about the ideas.
I think that just – Jones saw that as free advertising ultimately. But I started working there as soon as he started the supplements. And it wasn't gradual. It was almost immediate. He was badgering reporters. They needed to start talking about supplements in their reports. They needed to cut to ads regularly. When I first was trained on how to edit videos, I say trained.
I mean I was told not to include certain – Websites that was pretty much the training it was basically just do what Jones wants in the moment a lot of times he would stand over your shoulder and tell you what he wanted and But ads were not put at the end of every video that was uploaded, and that quickly changed. Jones wanted ads on every video.
If people were on the radio, they had to – if people were filling in hosting the show, they had to near constantly talk about the products that he was selling. Jones had this idea that he wanted to grow his operation into this full-fledged media outlet, and his narrative was the only way he could do that is if he was bringing in so much money that he had the resources to do it.
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Chapter 5: How did Josh Owens feel about the stories he produced?
The most interesting part of the story was how everyone reacted afterwards. We were there with one reporter, a woman reporter, and she got incredibly upset. She also wasn't comfortable around guns. Jones just brought her out because he wanted her to be on camera. And she got really upset and started asking, you know, what is going on? Why? This doesn't seem safe. What are you doing?
And then everyone, including myself, We all just sort of played into Jones's line. He said it was a joke. He said that he did it intentionally. He was just messing around. The look on his face, I could tell it wasn't intentional. I mean, why would anyone do that intentionally? That's incredibly dangerous, especially for a boss to be doing that to their employees.
But we all just sort of ran to his defense and, you know, get Jones's back. Don't make him feel uncomfortable. Don't make him feel like he's wrong for doing this. And that was just the immediate reaction. And look, I was part of it. It was, you know, why are you asking questions? Why are you going crazy? This isn't that big of a deal. It was a huge deal.
He could have killed us. Right, right, right. How did you feel walking into the office in the morning to start a new day?
It's funny, early on I would listen to music on the way to work. I would try and get myself in a good mood. I believe early on I was well-meaning. I thought what we were doing was important. I felt like it was a big opportunity to be there. I had been plucked out of film school where I didn't know what my future was and it was just exciting. And I remember there were many times in the beginning
I would go into the office with a good attitude. And then like a snap of the finger, Jones would come into the office. Sometimes he was jovial. Sometimes he was playing around. But that playfulness could turn on a dime anytime. And we were always on edge waiting for that to turn. And I just remember my attitude shifting at some point where I thought, okay, I'm not here.
This has got nothing to do with me. It's not about being excited. It's not about, you know, having ideas or contributing in that way. It's what does Jones need at all times? If he's going to play around, I'll sit here. I'll listen. I'll laugh. But don't get too involved because you might be the one that turns the dime.
God, it kind of sounds like being in a cult.
Yeah.
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Chapter 6: What impact did the Sandy Hook case have on Josh Owens?
We are speaking with Josh Owens. His book is The Madness of Believing, a memoir from Inside Alex Jones' Conspiracy Machine. He'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air. This is Fresh Air. I'm Dave Davies.
We're listening to the interview I recorded with Josh Owens, who spent four years in his 20s working as a video editor and field producer for the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones and his media enterprise Infowars.
In a new memoir, Owens describes the stress and moral qualms he felt as Jones pressured his staff to generate countless stories about the evil done by globalist elites, the deep state, and the mainstream media. Owen's book is The Madness of Believing, a memoir from inside Alex Jones' conspiracy machine. One or two more of the reporting trips that you went on are I think worth talking about.
Once you were dispatched with some other reporters to El Paso, Texas because the conservative website Judicial Watch had alleged that ISIS had established a training base in a neighborhood in Juarez just across the border there from El Paso. What did you find when you went there?
Nothing.
We found nothing. Well, that's not what the website said.
Right. That's not what the website said. So we went to this place because of the Judicial Watch report. We went to El Paso. And when we got there, I was there with a reporter. When we got there, there was nothing to report on. And so we started getting calls from a news producer saying, Jones is expecting something. What are you doing? What are you guys doing? And –
I remember being so perplexed and angry. Like, what do you expect us to do? We can't just summon something out of thin air. That I said, well, I mean, I guess we'll just make the reporter I'm with, I guess we'll just dress him up as an ISIS jihadian, have him walk across the border to show that they could get in. And it was just a moment of anger, a moment of feeling perplexed.
And the producer said, let me call you right back. And so he called us back and he said, yeah, Jones loves the idea. That's what you guys need to do. And I remember sitting there thinking, what idea? What are you talking about? He was like, your idea. You guys are going to get the reporter to dress up as ISIS and you're going to film him walking across the border.
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Chapter 7: How did Alex Jones react to Josh Owens leaving Infowars?
Yeah. I mean, overnight, it had over a million views. Jones went on the show and he said, you know, we have to share this with friends, share this with family. This is proof. This is evidence that the border is open and that there is danger afoot. So, yeah, the video went viral.
After that trip, you write in the book, we had become seasoned BS artists devoid of conscience. At this point, you didn't feel good about what you were doing, did you?
No, no, not at all. But again, like I said, it was, there were so many things that I distracted myself with. There were so many excuses I made to continue doing it. I felt like there was no way out. I felt like You know, a lot of the times I don't even think I was thinking at all. The main thing was, how do I do a good job? How do I get the approval of this person?
How do I just mitigate those blowups?
After the trip to El Paso, you also discovered what might have been a mosque in Juarez surrounded by barbed wire and this was presented as if it's certainly an ISIS outpost, which you had no evidence of. But then you went on a separate – another trip to an Islamic community I guess in upper New York state, right? Is it Islamburg? Do I have that right?
Yes, you do.
Where you and some reporters went and it's a community that practiced their faith and kind of kept to themselves. When you went up to the entrance, you were told, well, give us your names and we're going to check out and make sure you're who you say you are.
And after that, you were actually visited by people from the New York Joint Terrorism Task Force who the Islamberg officials had asked to just check you out to make sure that you're not a threat, right? Am I getting this right? Right. So you end up kind of doing these stories. The headlines were Sharia Law Zones Confirmed in America.
And then the visits from the Joint Terrorism Task Force, which was just established that you weren't a threat, were treated as being spied upon by the deep state. The headline was Infowars Reporters Stucked by Terrorism Task Force. Not exactly what happened, was it?
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Chapter 8: What does Josh Owens hope to achieve moving forward after Infowars?
It was all lies.
Well, I'm a lot older than you, and I wouldn't want to be judged by the dumbest things I've done in my 20s. I mean, I think when you're that age, you're trying to please people that are decades older than you, and that's what they tell you what to do. You tend to respect authority and try and do a good job, I guess.
Yeah, I think that's a big part of the reason why. I know it's a big part of the reason why I wrote this book. I look back on those things, and I think, I don't want to be a person that just moves on from it and doesn't take accountability because then I don't feel like you can grow. And I would love to grow. I would love to continue growing. I would love to be a better person.
And so I just felt like I needed to clear things up for myself. Why was I there? Why did I do these things? Why did I stick around for so long? I don't have all the answers now. But I think exploring it and asking those questions and taking accountability was just sort of part of the process.
I want to take another break here. Let me reintroduce you. We are speaking with Josh Owens. His book is The Madness of Believing, a memoir from Inside Alex Jones' Conspiracy Machine. We'll talk more after this break. This is Fresh Air.
This is Fresh Air and our guest is Josh Owens who spent four years in his 20s working as a video editor and field producer for conspiracy theorist Alex Jones and his media enterprise Infowars. His memoir is The Madness of Believing, a memoir from inside Alex Jones' conspiracy machine.
You know, one thing you don't write much about in the book, which would loom large in the broader Alex Jones story, was the horrific shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut. That happened just a few months before you joined Jones. How aware were you of his and other InfoWars hosts' comments about Sandy Hook during the time you were there?
It happened in that exact liminal space between me being offered the job and me starting the job. And I think, you know, if I'm being honest, so much of my mind was just focused on moving to a new place and I wasn't paying attention to those things. The reason I don't write much about that in the book is because I didn't really have much connection with that.
I never worked on reports about Sandy Hook. I really didn't even notice the gravity of it until it started. Hillary Clinton called Jones out in the 2016 election, and she said, how dark does someone's heart have to be to tell the stories that Jones did to spread those narratives?
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