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Fresh Air

‘Merrily We Roll Along,’ From Flop To Hit

27 Nov 2025

Transcription

Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

0.031 - 9.823 Terry Gross

This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Happy Thanksgiving. Today's show is about Stephen Sondheim's 1981 musical Merrily We Roll Along.

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Chapter 2: What is the significance of Stephen Sondheim's 'Merrily We Roll Along'?

10.423 - 35.74 Terry Gross

Next week, a filmed version of the hit 2023 Broadway revival will open in movie theaters for a limited run. And that's great news. The original production closed after only 16 performances. But over the years, this terrific musical developed a cult following. There have been several revivals, but the 2023 production was the first to open on Broadway, and it was only a limited engagement.

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36.321 - 52.486 Terry Gross

It received seven Tony nominations and won four Tonys, including Best Revival of a Musical. Today we'll listen back to my conversation from last year while the show was still on Broadway with Jonathan Groff, who won a Best Performer Tony for his starring role as Frank.

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52.927 - 78.06 Terry Gross

His performance in Hamilton as King George earned him a Tony nomination, and he received another nomination for his current role as Bobby Darin in the musical Just in Time. Groff is also known for his performances in the movie Frozen and in the TV series Mindhunter, Looking, and Glee. My other guest is Maria Friedman, who received a Tony nomination for directing the Merrily revival.

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78.64 - 101.2 Terry Gross

Friedman had also worked closely with Sondheim in the past. On stage, she co-starred in a London revival of Merrily in the mid-'90s under Sondheim's direction. She also had leading roles in British productions of the Sondheim musicals Passion and Sunday in the Park with George. She became good friends with Sondheim, and he became the godfather of one of her children.

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101.18 - 113.716 Terry Gross

People sometimes complain that Sondheim doesn't write hummable melodies, which isn't true, but it's particularly not true of the songs in Merrily, as you'll hear when we play excerpts from the new cast recording.

Chapter 3: Why did the original production of 'Merrily We Roll Along' fail?

114.757 - 132.318 Terry Gross

The story begins with three old friends. Jonathan Groff plays Frank, a composer turned film producer. Daniel Radcliffe plays Charlie, a lyricist and playwright who wrote songs with Frank and thinks Frank abandoned his calling as a composer to make money as a crowd-pleasing movie producer.

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133.059 - 158.575 Terry Gross

Lindsay Mendez plays Mary, a best-selling novelist turned theater critic who's become bitter and drinks way too much. Charlie and Mary feel abandoned by Frank. The story spans 20 years, starting in 1976. Each scene goes further back in time until 1957, when the friends first meet. Let's start with Jonathan Groff singing Old Friends from the new cast recording.

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160.327 - 164.674 Jonathan Groff

Hey, old friend, are you okay?

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Chapter 4: How did the 2023 revival of 'Merrily We Roll Along' differ from previous attempts?

165.435 - 216.169 Jonathan Groff

Old friend, what do you say? Old friend, are we or are we unique? Time goes by, everything else keeps changing. You and I, we get continued next week. Most friends fade, or they don't make the grade. New ones are quickly made, and in a pinch, sure, they'll do. But us, old friend, what's to discuss, old friend? Here's to us, who's like us, damn few.

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217.921 - 236.875 Terry Gross

That was Old Friends from the new revival of Stephen Sondheim's Merrily We Roll Along. Jonathan Groff, Maria Friedman, congratulations on the show. Congratulations on your Tony nominations. I love this revival so much. I'm so happy to have you on the show. Thank you. We're happy to be here.

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Chapter 5: What was Jonathan Groff's experience in his role as Frank?

237.108 - 259.279 Terry Gross

Sondheim songs often have a different meaning than you'd think out of context. And this is sung after a fight between Jonathan's character, the composer, Franklin Shepard, and Daniel Radcliffe's character, the lyricist, Charlie Kringus. After their collaboration, it keeps getting putting on hold because the composer has become a successful film producer and isn't writing music.

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260.1 - 281.239 Terry Gross

And the lyricist is really frustrated because he thinks... that the composer is a genius and he's not fulfilling his true worth. It's also very syncopated, this song. And I always think of Merrilee as Sondheim's syncopated musical. So many of these songs are syncopated. And Maria, I'm wondering if he ever talked to you about that.

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281.692 - 309.288 Maria Friedman

No, he'd always taught character and story, and that's what drove him to write in the rhythms that he did for different people. It's a very, very good question, by the way, that you notice that it's quite spiky. And it becomes more rhapsodic and luscious as we walk backwards towards the hope. And there was a point where they really have a row. And finally, an argument, I think you call it.

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309.408 - 319.748 Maria Friedman

I call it a row in England. And the syncopation is about the edginess of the way they feel. It's not just there as a kind of add-on. It's driven by the narrative.

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320.048 - 327.797 Terry Gross

So, Jonathan, what was it like for you to sing that song? And maybe you could clap out or sing out or point out the syncopation in it.

328.469 - 331.733 Jonathan Groff

Is this in the melody? In the melody, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

332.654 - 333.615 Terry Gross

Even the opening line.

333.995 - 352.317 Jonathan Groff

Hey, old friend, are you okay? Old friend. One of my favorite ones, one of my favorite parts, though, is when I say, most friends fade or they don't make the grade. New ones are quickly made. Yeah.

Chapter 6: How did Maria Friedman approach directing the revival?

353.545 - 387.265 Jonathan Groff

The spaces are so delicious to play in the writing of the music. And Maria oftentimes in rehearsal would talk with us about how The pauses are just as, if not more important than the notes. The pauses in between the notes and understanding the life that happens in those pauses are so major. And in that song, there's a kind of, because the character of Frank is trying to persuade, trying to...

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388.696 - 404.781 Jonathan Groff

manage Charlie's spikiness. There's almost like a playfulness I find in the pauses, particularly in that one line where I'm waiting for him to break. I'm waiting for him to melt a little bit. And that tension is so fun to play.

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405.217 - 429.625 Terry Gross

The original 1981 production of Merrily We Roll Along was a big flop. It closed after, I think, 16 performances. Maria, you were close friends with Sondheim. You became close friends. So why did you want to do a production, a new revival of Merrily, knowing that previous attempts also failed? And I don't think they were necessarily artistic failures.

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429.665 - 438.71 Terry Gross

I've seen a few productions that I thought were great. Had they tried to diagnose why the show had never succeeded before? Yeah. And what was the diagnosis?

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438.87 - 453.72 Maria Friedman

Well, I never knew what their diagnosis was, what they put in this show. So they didn't discuss that with me. I'll tell you one thing they were absolutely adamant about is that we didn't ever refer back to the old version, that this was the version they wanted done.

454.241 - 473.15 Maria Friedman

They themselves had rejected the old version that they had written, which was deeply painful for them, but they were starting afresh. A couple of people have taken bits from the old one, that was just an absolute no-go with Steve. He did not want his other version ever done again.

473.991 - 491.552 Terry Gross

This is the first commercially successful production of Marilee. In the show, when the characters have the first successful production, they're standing outside the door listening for the applause. And when they hear the applause, they sing, it's a hit, it's a hit.

Chapter 7: What themes are explored in the songs of 'Merrily We Roll Along'?

491.532 - 501.288 Terry Gross

So where were you on opening night on Broadway for this show? And I'm also wondering, like, if you all went somewhere afterwards and saying it's a hit.

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505.875 - 532.558 Maria Friedman

Well, I was in the auditorium. I can't tell you how much I miss Steve that night. Because for me, this has been a love letter to him from day one. Not that he wanted the love letter, may I say. He always used to say, for God's sake, don't do it for me, do it for you. And I'll come and see it. And if I like it, I'll let you know. And if I don't, trust me, I'll let you know. But...

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532.538 - 552.589 Maria Friedman

I went into this, if it in any way sounds arrogant, then I've not made myself clear. I was really calm on opening night. I sat in the auditorium. I watched a whole audience sitting at the front of their seats. I heard an opening night that was quiet, sort of, I don't know, it felt like the whole room was pushing in.

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552.569 - 573.092 Maria Friedman

as one towards the story i felt totally relaxed because i've been with this show now on and off for 30 something years and it was what i everything i wanted on that stage there it was jonathan were you listening carefully to the applause to see which way it was going to go

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573.629 - 581.878 Jonathan Groff

It's so funny you ask that because like Maria, funnily enough, the success you could hear in the silence. You could.

582.318 - 599.316 Maria Friedman

It's absolutely right, Jonathan. It's in the silence. Yes. In the breathing as one. Yes. When they heard things that they collected those moments a bit like a sleuth. They're going backwards. They're like, you just hear the whole audience as one.

599.296 - 621.709 Jonathan Groff

Yeah, there's some lines that happen two hours and 40 minutes into an evening after an audience. One line that has been laid out. One line that takes over the course of maybe three seconds to say. And now you've had a whole show, a whole intermission. And this reappears. Several of these lines reappear at the very end.

621.689 - 634.165 Jonathan Groff

And when you feel those land, it's like, whoa, these people are really listening and picking up that detail that starts with his writing.

635.467 - 637.89 Terry Gross

Are you talking about lines in the song Our Time?

Chapter 8: How does the structure of the musical affect its storytelling?

716.612 - 717.613 Maria Friedman

And it's just thrown away.

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717.933 - 718.514 Jonathan Groff

Yeah.

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718.534 - 722.259 Maria Friedman

He says, you really like what I wrote? Yeah. He says, yeah. He says, you do.

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722.279 - 724.022 Jonathan Groff

You don't just write what you know. You write what you know.

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724.042 - 735.438 Maria Friedman

And that's it. And that's two hours including an interval later. And the whole audience just go, oh. You just feel the pain.

735.718 - 735.818

Yeah.

736.456 - 745.943 Terry Gross

Jonathan how could you tear up after having done so many performances of this? How is it that it's still so emotional for you?

746.733 - 774.667 Jonathan Groff

It's such a good question. I think that they wrote something really personal. Stephen Sondheim and George Firth feels like just here, let me take my heart out of my body and just place it at your feet. That is in the energy of the writing. And then Maria came in and asked us all to do that. They did it. They had the bravery to do it.

774.827 - 807.933 Jonathan Groff

And so everything actually is a word that comes up a lot in the music and in the script. This word everything. And in a kind of cosmic sense, Maria gave us the gift of inviting all of us together. To give everything. I mean, including Off-Broadway, we've done this over 300 times. Instead of it getting rote or instead of it getting stale, it just goes deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper.

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