Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Dave Davies. Our guest today, actor Michael Shannon, has appeared in nearly a hundred movies and television productions, perhaps best known for playing brooding, villainous or unhinged characters like Agent Nelson Van Alden in HBO's Boardwalk Empire.
Chapter 2: What roles is Michael Shannon known for?
But Shannon's range is far broader, and his two latest projects find him playing real-life historical characters engaged in noble pursuits. In the film Nuremberg, he plays the U.S. Supreme Court justice who organized the International Tribunal to try Nazi leaders for war crimes after the Second World War, serving as lead prosecutor in the ensuing trial.
And in the new Netflix series, Death by Lightning, he's President James Garfield, who fought against corrupt Washington politicians for civil service reform before being assassinated only four months into office. Michael Shannon earned Oscar nominations for his performances in the films Revolutionary Road and Nocturnal Animals.
He's also appeared in the films Take Shelter, Knives Out, The Shape of Water, and Man of Steel, among many others, and in the Showtime series George and Tammy. He also formed an indie rock band and has collaborated with musician Jason Narducci in performing songs from several albums of the group R.E.M. We'll talk about that. I spoke to Michael Shannon last Thursday.
Well, Michael Shannon, welcome back to Fresh Air. It's been a while.
Oh, it's my pleasure, Dave. Thanks for having me.
You know, you've had a lot of roles. And as I said, in many of the better known ones, your characters are unhinged or villainous.
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Chapter 3: How does Michael Shannon describe his transition to playing good guys?
In these films, you play not just good guys, but, you know, real historical characters fighting battles to right wrongs, strengthen democracy. Do you think this was intentional to cast you in these roles?
Oh, gosh. I don't know. So much of what has happened in my career just seems like dumb luck, you know? I don't know what got into these people's heads to look my way for these things, but I sure am grateful that they thought of me, you know? I mean, I guess typically... With a project like Nuremberg, I think when people hear that I'm in Nuremberg, they assume I'm playing a Nazi.
And when they hear about Death by Lightning, they assume I'm playing the assassin. So I guess it's nice to surprise people.
All right. Well, you know, you play President James Garfield, as we mentioned, in Death by Lightning. That's the Netflix series. He was elected in 1880. What drew you to this project?
Well, it started with Candice's book, Destiny of the Republic.
Candice Millard. Yeah, she's been on our show. Terrific historian.
And for anybody who watches the program and gets a kick out of it, I highly suggest you read the book if you haven't already because it's very captivating. And very informative and illuminating. But I find that a lot of people really don't know much about this period.
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Chapter 4: What historical significance does James Garfield hold?
It's kind of sandwiched between the Civil War and the World Wars and the Depression, you know, which are all, I guess, more inherently dramatic periods. But... I think this period is really worth studying and looking at because the country seemed very lost at sea, as Garfield hence said in his address at the Republican Convention. And it's easy, I think, to feel that way now.
So if you're curious about how we might... get out of this quagmire we're currently in, it might behoove people to take a look at this period in our nation's history.
Yeah, and it's interesting because Garfield was kind of an accidental hero. I mean he was initially going to nominate someone else for the presidency and the convention got deadlocked and people were so captivated by his speech they turned to him. I didn't remember anything about James Garfield. I'm sure most of us don't.
But when I saw you in that suit and that big beard and that long coat and vest and bow tie, I thought, yes, that's the picture we've seen of James Garfield. Talk a little bit about – physically occupying the care. Did you grow that big beard?
I literally could not grow that beard, even if you gave me five years, it wouldn't look anything like that. But we had such a brilliant team of hair and makeup and wardrobe. And they just, they do their magic, you know.
Did you find you're carrying yourself differently? I mean, did you feel like a president? Did people treat you with deference on the set?
Yeah, I mean, it was a very happy set. And, you know, we shot in Budapest, Hungary. And it was interesting because it's not their history, you know, and most of the crew was Hungarian. But they took it very seriously, as if it were their own story they were telling. But, yeah, the wardrobe, you know, a lot of the vests I wear have... these very stiff fronts to them and the buttons are all studs.
So if you move too much, the studs pop out of the little holes. So it does do something to your posture.
You're a little more like a statue than an active human. Yeah.
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Chapter 5: How did Michael Shannon prepare for his role in Death by Lightning?
There will be no statues of them. No songs of praise. I'm gonna put Herman Goering on the stand, and I'm gonna make him tell the world what he did. So that it can never happen again.
Hmm. You brought me here because of Goering.
No. I brought you here to show you that before the bullets were fired, before tens of millions of men died, all of this started with laws. This war ends in a courtroom.
And that's our guest Michael Shannon with Rami Malek in the new film Nuremberg. Give us your sense of your character here, Robert Jackson, the Supreme Court justice on this historic mission, how you got into his head.
You know, I was able to do some research that was helpful, a lot of breeding and In addition to his work on the Nuremberg trials, I mean, throughout his career, he was a part of so many momentous decisions in the court's history. But I feel like he's a pretty plain dealing, straight shooting kind of guy, you know. And
What was really fascinating to me was just how extraordinarily difficult it was for him to do something that seemed very logical and necessary. How much opposition he met at every step of the way. How many people said, you know, you shouldn't do this, or this isn't how we should handle this situation, or let's just shoot him. Which was the prevailing sentiment among...
a lot of the people in power in America at the time.
Yeah, we just finished a dreadful, catastrophic war, yeah.
Yeah. And then now, here he is, you know, talking to this very well-meaning, at the time, doctor, and still just meaning so much obstruction. And it goes all the way throughout the story. And I think you finally actually, in the showdown with Goering, see him really start to lose it a little bit. Just say, why is this so difficult? It's so obvious what's happened.
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Chapter 6: What challenges did Garfield face as President?
And I kind of look at it that way too. Uh, But it can give you a little bit of vertigo if you actually look back at everything and think, oh my God, I was a part of all of that. it makes you a little dizzy, for real. But it's also the past, you know, and I'm always thinking, well, what can I do now that would be worth a darn, you know, and keep pushing myself.
And I still feel like I have so much to learn. There's so much, not just about acting, but about life and the world and I guess the thing I'm most grateful for in my career is how much I've learned about the world through acting. And when I look at these projects that I have now, Nuremberg and Death by Lightning, I learned so much.
I would have never known anything about Robert Jackson had I not done Nuremberg. And I probably wouldn't have known anything about President Garfield had I not done Death by Lightning. So I just want to keep discovering and learning.
You played a contract killer in the film The Iceman. It's based on a real guy. And Ray Liotta was also in the film. He's done a lot of mob films. He's quite a tough character in a lot of them. What was that experience like?
Oh, gosh. I mean, that was a thrill, you know. I'm as big a fan of Goodfellas as anybody. And also the movie Something Mild, the Jonathan Demme film. I remember seeing him in that and thinking, that's the scariest demon being I've ever seen in my life. And he had those beautiful blue eyes, those ice water eyes, you know, just very powerful eyes.
I was a little weak in the knees, I suppose, but I got over it.
Was Ray Liotta a scary guy in any way?
Well, I mean, the issue was is that I had to be scarier. Right. And there's a scene in the movie, if you see it, where... He points a gun at my face, and I'm completely expressionless. Like, okay, go ahead. And it spooks him out so much that he leaves me alone. And I think I actually managed to spook him out for real.
Not many people have done that, I imagine.
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