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Fresh Air

Remembering Architect Frank Gehry

12 Dec 2025

Transcription

Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

0.031 - 2.098 David Bianculli

This is Fresh Air. I'm David Bianculli.

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Chapter 2: Who was Frank Gehry and what is his architectural significance?

2.68 - 23.909 David Bianculli

Today, we're going to commemorate Frank Gehry, who was one of the most famous and influential architects in the world. He died last week at the age of 96. Frank Gehry designed the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao, Spain, which architect Philip Johnson described as the most important building of our time. He also designed the Disney Concert Hall in L.A.

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23.949 - 52.917 David Bianculli

and Seattle's Experience Music Project, a music museum inspired by Jimi Hendrix. Gary's work has been described as looking more like sculptures than buildings. When Scott Pelley of 60 Minutes profiled him in 2002, Pelley said, quote, Unquote. We're going to listen back to his 2004 interview with Terry Gross.

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53.638 - 72.006 David Bianculli

At the time, his latest project was the music pavilion at Chicago's new 24 1⁄2-acre Millennium Park. Like his Guggenheim Museum, the exterior of his music pavilion has curving, billowing, floating shapes, shapes that actually are made of heavy, hard steel.

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Chapter 3: What are some of Frank Gehry's most famous works?

71.986 - 75.994 David Bianculli

Terry asked him how he started working with those steel forms.

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77.216 - 92.044 Frank Gehry

I came into architecture at the height of modernism. After the war, decoration was a sin. Purity, functionalism... All of that stuff.

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93.186 - 96.993 Terry Gross

So it was an era of purity and functionalism, a lot of glass and steel, high-rises.

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97.113 - 126.31 Frank Gehry

Right, and it became very cold and inhuman and lifeless. Probably some people yearned for bringing decoration back, and they tried it for a while. I went a different route. I thought it was possible... within the aesthetics of the day to find a way to express feeling and humanistic qualities in a building.

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127.808 - 161.641 Frank Gehry

And I got interested in movement, the sense of movement having a humanistic effect on an inert building. And there are examples in history of that. I've alluded, I've talked about it before. The Shiva dancing figures from India, that a multi-armed... dancer in bronze. And the best ones, when you look at them and turn away and look back, you're sure they moved.

162.964 - 190.105 Frank Gehry

I was fascinated with that sense of movement. And since our culture, when I started making my work, was a moving environment, planes, trains, cars, whatever, I talked about it and I thought about it, but I wasn't clear about it until I started experimenting quite accidentally with fish forms.

190.967 - 210.364 Terry Gross

Let me ask you about fish. I mean, fish... Fish, as we all know, they have spines, but they're so flexible and they can bend and curve. What was the parallel you saw between fish and what you wanted to do in your architecture?

211.576 - 247.27 Frank Gehry

I was interested in movement, and I loved the drawings of Hiroshige and the Japanese woodcuts of carp. And I loved the quality of them, and I always thought they were very architectural. I also thought of fish as being on Earth 300 million years before man. And when my brethren started to regurgitate the past in the postmodern movement, as it was called.

248.296 - 270.086 Frank Gehry

The past they were regurgitating was anthropomorphic. And I said, well, if you're going to go back, you might as well go back 300 million years before man to fish. And, you know, it was a sort of a sarcastic remark and kind of I didn't even realize what I was talking about when I said it. And I started drawing.

Chapter 4: How did Frank Gehry develop his unique design style?

302.296 - 321.728 Frank Gehry

It had the same character that the Shiva dancing figure. You turned away and looked, and you thought it moved. And so quite accidentally, I found myself into a language that I was really looking to find. And like everything else, it happens by accident.

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322.369 - 325.975 Terry Gross

So you were looking to find a way of making something very stable, right?

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326.714 - 327.715 Frank Gehry

That expressed movement.

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327.756 - 336.208 Terry Gross

That expressed movement and you found it through the form of the fish. And how does that connect to the forms that you've used in recent architecture?

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336.228 - 364.657 Frank Gehry

Well, I then made shapes. I started to say, what could I do to this wooden fish that would make it less embarrassing as a piece of kitsch? And I cut off the tail and I cut off the head and I cut off the fins and I started to abstract it. And I made a shape, an abstracted, let's call it a fillet of fish, that I used in a show, an exhibit I did at the Walker Art Museum.

366.118 - 382.472 Frank Gehry

And it still had that quality of movement when you looked back and looked around. And I made that out of a wooden frame and covered it with metal. And so that was the beginning of a language. And I took that language into the buildings.

383.397 - 399.835 Terry Gross

But, you know, in some of your buildings, including the new Pritzker Pavilion in Chicago and the Disney Concert Hall and the Guggenheim Museum, those kinds of curving shapes, they're not made out of wood. I mean, they're made out of steel or titanium.

400.656 - 422.086 Terry Gross

And how did you realize that that would be – how did you start working with titanium as a medium for something that would be really firm and stable – Strong, but also moldable. Not moldable, I guess it's more, I don't know, are you molding it or are you, how are you getting the shape?

422.747 - 453.063 Frank Gehry

Okay, here's how you do it. I do maybe 50 models. They look, sometimes they look like crumpled paper, so people think I crumple up paper and that's how they get there. And I analyze the shapes as though they're structures with the computer to determine whether I'm within the budgetary constraints. And over time, I slowly evolve these shapes and refine them.

Chapter 5: What inspired Gehry's use of movement in architecture?

717.164 - 731.247 Frank Gehry

You know, when you go through a childhood like that, and it was a tough one because there were tough times for the family. And you tend to want to cut that part of your life off.

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731.868 - 733.05 Terry Gross

So you don't think about it very much.

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733.081 - 765.117 Frank Gehry

Forget about it. But he was involved with the carnival business in a way and used to bring those kind of people home. And I met, as a kid, I met a lot of them. There was a blind boxer, black guy that used to babysit me, I remember. The good thing about it all was the mix of people that I was exposed to as a kid, which has helped me in life.

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765.358 - 780.672 Terry Gross

One thing I think you have not forgotten about from that period, you've said that you were exposed to a lot of anti-Semitism in this small mining town. Did that contribute to the fact that you changed your name when you became an architect from Goldberg to Gehrig?

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781.968 - 794.051 Frank Gehry

Well, it was a factor in allowing myself to be convinced by my ex-wife that it was the most important thing to do, I guess. I didn't like the idea of changing it.

794.632 - 795.674 Terry Gross

Why was it so important to her?

795.734 - 831.529 Frank Gehry

We were going to have our first child, and there had been a lot of anti-Semitism going I experienced, she experienced, and she said she didn't want to bring a kid into the world to go through that. The name at that time was a caricature. There was a radio program called The Goldbergs that sort of caricatured. And I took a lot of heat for it. And You know, I didn't wanna do it.

831.59 - 847.039 Frank Gehry

My father hated me for letting her do it. My mother went along with it. And after she did it, I was so embarrassed. Every time I met somebody, I told them.

847.099 - 849.082 Terry Gross

But you wouldn't go back to Goldberg now, too late, right?

Chapter 6: How did Gehry transition from wood to steel and titanium in his designs?

2068.973 - 2092.416 Raul Malo

And I remember having all kinds of people, all walks of life coming up to me after and going, wow. I remember – older generations, I remember seeing the Statue of Liberty when I came over from Poland or from Czechoslovakia or from other parts of Europe. And so it touched a lot of people's nerves in that –

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2092.396 - 2118.316 Raul Malo

It not only dealt with the Cuban immigrants, but I think we're all immigrants in this country. And we all came over from somewhere. So it was neat that it affected other people. And one of the lyrics is, this 90-mile trip has taken 30 years to make. They tried to keep forever what was never theirs to take. I cursed and scratched the devil's hand as he stood in front of me.

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2119.217 - 2127.727 Raul Malo

One last direct from his big cigar and he finally set me free. That's the last verse on the song From Hell to Paradise.

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2129.008 - 2153.263 David Bianculli

Raul Malo speaking to Terry Gross in 1995. The guitarist and lead singer of the Mavericks died this week. He was 60 years old. Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews the newest film in the Knives Out murder mystery series. This is Fresh Air. Our film critic, Justin Chang, recommends Wake Up Deadman, the latest film in the Knives Out murder mystery series.

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2154.044 - 2178.736 David Bianculli

Like its predecessors, it's written and directed by Rian Johnson and stars Daniel Craig as Detective Benoit Blanc. In the new film, Josh O'Connor plays a Catholic priest who teams up with Blanc to solve a whodunit in his parish. Wake Up Deadman also features Jeremy Renner, Kerry Washington, and Glenn Close, and is streaming now on Netflix. Here is Justin's review.

2179.658 - 2200.764 Justin Chang

When I was in my early teens, I was both a devout churchgoer and an avid reader of mysteries. One of my favorite writers was P.D. James, whose Anglican faith informed her fiction in subtle ways. For James, the plotting and solving of murder was a grisly yet profoundly moral undertaking.

2201.807 - 2229.195 Justin Chang

A detective story, she wrote, confirms our hope that, despite some evidence to the contrary, we live in a beneficent and moral universe, in which problems can be solved by rational means. The new movie Wake Up Deadman, Rian Johnson's latest whodunit after Knives Out and Glass Onion, is too funny and slyly over-the-top to feel like a Petey James story.

2229.956 - 2246.215 Justin Chang

To my knowledge, James never incorporated body-dissolving acid or the old poison beverage switcheroo trick. But in his own crafty way, Johnson is also using mystery conventions to open up a spiritual inquiry.

2246.633 - 2270.177 Justin Chang

The story takes place in and around a Catholic church at a small town in upstate New York, where a junior priest named Judd DuPlentice, played by a terrific Josh O'Connor, has been assigned to serve. Unfortunately, he's forced to work under Monsignor Jefferson Wicks, whom Josh Brolin plays as an angry fundamentalist firebrand.

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