The Roy Cohn Playbook, from McCarthyism to Trump
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What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. Back when Donald Trump was getting his start as a real estate developer in his father's business, wanting to branch out from apartments in the boroughs to more ambitious buildings in Manhattan, and trying to find a place for himself among wealthy New Yorkers, celebrities, and power brokers, his lawyer and mentor was the infamous, unethical Roy Cohn. Cohn's rules became Trump's rules, writes my guest Kai Bird, in his new biography of Cohn called American Scoundrel. Kai Byrd also co wrote the definitive biography of Robert Oppenheimer called American Prometheus, which was the basis of Christopher Nolan's Oscar winning film Oppenheimer. Early in Roy Cohn's career, he prosecuted Julius and Ethel Rosenberg on charges of espionage.
They were sent to the electric chair. In the nineteen fifties, when Senator Joe McCarthy led the subcommittee that investigated and smeared alleged communists and gay people, ruining their careers and sometimes their lives.
Who was Roy Cohn and why is his story relevant to modern politics?
Cohn was the subcommittee's legal counsel. This in spite of Cohn being a closeted gay man himself was Cohn moved on to a more lucrative career as the lawyer for leaders of New York's crime families. He was connected to several prominent New York politicians and helped Ronald Reagan get elected president. Cohn was indicted by the Justice Department on three occasions of bribery, perjury, and extortion and other white collar crimes, and was always acquitted. But in nineteen eighty six, after being accused of bribery and fraud, he was disbarred. This was just a few weeks before he died of AIDS, which he always denied having, claiming it was liver cancer. Byrd says Cohn's story is important because of what it teaches us about the fragile character of American democracy.
Kai Bird, welcome to Fresh Air and congratulations on the biography. Um you you say that Roy Cohn's rules became Trump rules. Now there were a couple of Cohn rules that became Trump rules that I was familiar with, like never admit you were wrong, deny, deny, deny. And then when there are charges against you, delay, delay, delay. Can you think of an example where all three were used by Rory Cohn?
Uh yeah. During the time when in the sixties when he was indicted three times, Roy Cohn d delayed the courtroom proceedings as often as he could. He denied the allegations. He attacked the judge in particular by name. You know, he followed these rules throughout his life and he was a routine rule breaker. you know, the rules were for the little guy, not for him.
So did all of that help him get off on those charges?
Well, the evidence was really quite overwhelming. I argue in the book, along with my co author, my wife, Susan Goldmark, that he he was partly just damn lucky. You know, uh on one trial a juror's father suddenly fell dead and the judge felt compelled to declare a mistrial. on another occasion, Roy's own lawyer suffered a heart attack in the courtroom just as he was about to give the summation, And the trial judge was going to declare a recess and Roy steps forward and says, Judge, I'll do my own summation and he did. And this was uh to his advantage, of course, because he had not chosen to take the witness stand, so he hadn't been subjected to cross examination, but he was allowed over two days to spend seven hours defending himself and
And he did so brilliantly and apparently got some of the jurors weeping and they they acquitted him twelve to zero.
Okay, uh other rules like sue, counter sue, or threaten to and basically send the message that whether you win or lose It's gonna be a headache if you don't give in. So um Uh
this this was routine. You know, he he left unpaid debts all over Manhattan for little things like dry cleaners, his liquor bills, limousine bills, and when sued in small claims court, uh, you know, he he would delay delay and eventually the people he owed money to would give up and and or settle for a dime on the dollar.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0:00–1:18
2
Who was Roy Cohn and why is his story relevant to modern politics?
1:18–12:55
3
What were the core “Cohn rules” that shaped Donald Trump’s tactics?
12:55–16:12
4
How did Roy Cohn use denial, delay, and lawsuits to avoid accountability?
16:12–22:24
5
In what ways did Cohn’s approach to paying bills and avoiding paper trails influence Trump’s business practices?
22:24–26:37
6
How did the mentor‑mentee relationship between Cohn and Trump evolve over the years?
26:37–34:39
7
Why did Roy Cohn’s double life as a closeted gay man matter to his political tactics?
34:39–49:37
8
What lessons does Cohn’s role in McCarthyism teach about the fragility of American democracy?
49:37–50:30
Speakers
8 identifiedMore from Fresh Air
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