Show notes
About our guest:Alex Boten is a senior staff software engineer that has spent the last ten years helping organizations adapt to a cloud-native landscape by mashing keyboards. From building core network infrastructure to mobile client applications and everything in between, Alex has first-hand knowledge of how complex troubleshooting distributed applications is. This led him to the domain of observability and contributing as an approver and maintainer to OpenTelemetry.Find our guest on:All of Alex's socials on dot.cards/codebotenFind us on:All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingoutAll of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillelaShow Links:Silicon Valley - Tabs vs SpacesThe Engineer/Manager Pendulum, by Charity Majors (blog)The Journey Back to Being an Individual Contributor, by Alex Boten (blog)An Elegant Puzzle, by Will Larson (book)Ash Patel talks about stepping away from a director role and going into consultingRiaan Nolan talks about stepping away from a director role and going into consultingTranscript:ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. Geeking out with me today is Alex Boten. Welcome, Alex.ALEX: Hello. Thanks for having me.ADRIANA: Super excited to have you on. Where are you calling from today?ALEX: Just Vancouver, Canada, on the far west coast. So not too far away, but kind of far away.ADRIANA: All right, well, before we get started with the meaty bits, I'm going to subject you to my lightning round questions.ALEX: All right, let's do this.ADRIANA: All right, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?ALEX: I am mostly a righty, although when I play sports, I'm a lefty.ADRIANA: Cool. Okay, iPhone or Android?ALEX: I tried Android for a very brief moment, and then when I tried to sync it with my iTunes library like 15 years ago, it didn't work. So I just switched to iPhone and never looked back. I'm kind of stuck in it.ADRIANA: The iTunes library sync was the deal breaker.ALEX: Absolutely.ADRIANA: I feel ya. I, my mom had an Android for a while because my dad bought it for her even though he had an iPhone. And then she would ask me how to do stuff on, on her Android and I'm like, listen, if I'm not looking at your phone, I have no freaking clue what's going on because I don't have an Android.ALEX: It just made no sense. I...I'm with you. I could never understand it.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. All right, next question. Mac, Linux or Windows?ALEX: Mostly...mostly Mac these days. I have contemplated a few times going back to a Linux laptop, although every time I've tried it, I do a quick search on the laptops of choice, and the first hits that come back from the search engine are things like, hey, how do I get my broadcom WiFi card to work with my brand new laptop? And, you know, I did enough of this in the early two thousands that I don't, I don't feel I have the time to do that anymore.ADRIANA: I feel you.ALEX: Yeah, maybe I'll be on a Mac forever.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's kind of my...my reasoning too, eventually for why I went Mac because I had like a Linux machine and like, nothing worked on it and I had a BlackBerry at the time and I couldn't even sync my BlackBerry, so I had to like either do a Windows VM or dual boot, and then I'm like, nah.ALEX: Yep, I hear that.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, right, next question. Favorite programming language?ALEX: Let's see. I feel like in general, I don't have a strong preference. I've enjoyed Go for the past, I don't know, five or six years. Before that. I really enjoyed Python for like five or six years. So kind of whatever works. I think in general.ADRIANA: I'm down for that. Whatever makes you happy when you code too, right?ALEX: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think there's, there's gotchas with every single language, so you use anything long enough, you'll find those gotchas, I feel. But maybe I just haven't found that perfect language yet.ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Okay, next question. JSON or YAML?ALEX: Can I choose neither. Can I choose XML?ADRIANA: Seriously?ALEX: No.ADRIANA: I don't know. I don't know.ALEX: I think they're all just a means to an end. It's very rarely that any of those things are the thing that I really want to be spending my time on. So whatever the tools I'm using need, that's kind of what I'll...I'll go for it for that time.ADRIANA: All right, do down for that. Spaces or tabs?ALEX: I think I switch editors often enough that I prefer spaces in general because of various reasons. So I get spaces, but again, I'm not religious about it. If my, if my IDEs fill in tabs and I don't see it, I'm not going to pay attention to it. Although then when I switch to VIM and I see tabs, then I might be getting confused a little bit, so.ADRIANA: Yeah, sure.ALEX: I move for consistency one way or the other.ADRIANA: It's funny, I've asked this question a few times now, and so far no one has been, like, super adamant one way or another, which makes me happy, is so I always think back to that Silicon Valley episode where it's like, so mad because his girlfriend is using whatever he's not using. Wars are being fought over this.ALEX: I have been involved in those wars as, like, an innocent bystander, and really, it's. I just wanted at the end more than anything else.ADRIANA: So, yeah, I don't think it's worth fighting over. I've kind of gone back and forth like, I was tabs for a while, and then I kind of embraced spaces and I don't know, I. Yeah, never looked back. I don't really. I don't care either way, as long as it's consistent one way or another, so. Okay, two more questions. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?ALEX: Oh, that's a tough one. I think. I think text mostly. I feel like whenever I go to video I just kind of turn my brain off. But when I...when I read, I tend to be more active, so I feel like. I feel like text in general.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair, fair. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?ALEX: Oh, I'm pretty good at coming up with nonsense stories. Like, off the top of my head when I'm trying to entertain people, usually little people that need entertaining. I feel like that might be my superpower. Maybe work related superpower would be things along the lines of just, like, learning. Learning everything I need. As I'm, like, debugging a problem, I feel like, you know, there's always...there's always going to be an answer to a question, and I'm...I think I'm pretty good at not giving up, I guess.ADRIANA: Yes. And I feel like that is so important for our line of work because, I mean, the number of walls that we hit.ALEX: The number of walls and the complexity and, you know, there's always going to be, like, a...a new thing that someone you don't know programmed in a language that nobody's ever heard of, and you kind of have to, like, be able to at least understand enough to get past whatever is getting in your way. So I feel like solving...solving problems that way is very helpful.ADRIANA: Yeah, definitely. Having...having that persistence and then also knowing how to dig in, right?ALEX: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And just, you know, not...not being intimidated by the problems, I guess. Yeah, because they can't be intimidating. Sometimes you...you run into a problem, you're like, I have no idea what is happening in this particular instance.ADRIANA: Yes.ALEX: And...and just, you know, kind of chipping away at it little by little, I think is really helpful. So...ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. Like, I do find sometimes when I...when I come upon a problem that looks impossible, like, the only way to stay sane is to, like, break it up into, like, something that you can solve and then just sort of start following the breadcrumbs towards the solution.ALEX: Right. Being able to, like, take a step back and just identify what are the things that I know about this problem? Or, you know, how can I....how can I learn more about it without getting lost in the, like, oh, my God, I...I have no idea how to tackle this giant problem.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, totally.ALEX: It's pretty important.ADRIANA: I fully agree. Okay, well, now that we've got our questions out of the way. So it was funny when we were talking about what to talk about today, we could easily delve into OpenTelemetry because that is a chunk of the work that you do. However, we are going to not do that and instead talk about non OTel things.ALEX: Yeah, let's do it. There is a time where I wasn't working on OTel, and I'm always excited to kind of dive into some of that stuff. So I think we, I think we talked about, like, discussing engineering management and career path and choices. So I'm happy to kind of start there if you'd like.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, let's do that. Let's do that. Because I think both you and I kind of share this, I don't know, trauma for being in engineering management. Is that...is that the right way to put it?ALEX: I don't know about trauma. It definitely feels like it's a shared experience.ADRIANA: Yes.ALEX: Yeah, I feel like, I mean, for me, I went into engineering management after spending the better part of, like, ten years with an organization. And I feel like, in a lot of ways, our industry for a very long time, and I can see it shifting now. For a very long time, people were just taking engineering management as the next step, right? If you're around software long enough, the only evolution of your role as a software engineer is to eventually manage a team. And I'm happy to see that that's shifted a little bit. You see more people with roles like staff engineers, principal software engineers, you know, all that kind of role. That branch of the career path has evolved over time. But at least for me, at the time, when I, when I became an engineering manager, it just seemed like the next natural step in a career. And, you know, I'm curious if that's how you ended up where you ended up as an engineer manager as well.ADRIANA: Yeah, to be honest, I think mine was like a little bit of FOMO, but a little bit of that, too, because it was like, it felt to me like I was surrounded by all these people who were, like, moving up. And I'll put that in air quotes. And it felt like, you know, where I was definitely taught early on in my career that, you know, you made manager, you've made it, and that we should aspire to manager and director and VP and all that stuff. So I'm like, yes, yes, that, that's it. And, you know, over the years, I've personally taken on, like, management roles and leadership-y roles where at first I'm like, yeah, I got it. I made it. I'm all excited, and it's fun. It's a different, it's a different kind of work. But then at the end of the day, I realized that wasn't the stuff that made me happy. I don't know how your experience was around that.ALEX: Yeah. Just to make a comment on your previous statement, I don't know where you got FOMO about being an engineering manager. I feel like we should exchange notes on where you hang out to get that kind of FOMO. But I think for me, it was a similar vibe. I think I really enjoyed working in software. I really enjoyed writing software. I think that's always been something that I've been really excited to work on and kind of like you. You know, you see a lot of people in your peer group that move to engineering, management or director roles, and you start thinking, okay, well, maybe this is a thing for me as well.And I think if you look at the industry, there's a lot of other people that have ended up in the same place where they moved up, as you pointed out astutely in air quotes, they moved up to engineering management, and they kind of got stuck there. And, you know, for me, I think earlier on, I definitely thought after I made that transition, like, there was no going back. I thought, okay, well, this is it. I'm an engineering manager. Like, this is my career path now, and I have to stay on it. And I think it wasn't until I read an article about...from Charity Majors about the, like, the career pendulum, where I started thinking, like, oh, maybe there is a path to going back to an IC role. And I think at the point at which I read this article, I was already feeling this sense of the things that my team were accomplishing and their achievements I thought were great for the team, but I was in a place where if the team was doing well, I was happy to share the credit or give the credit to the team. But if the team wasn't doing well, I felt like I was taking on all of the responsibility and the blame for the team not accomplishing its goals.And I feel like that alone really threw some wrenches in my wheels a little bit. When I was an engineering manager, I think I just wasn't getting the same kind of positive reinforcement that the work that I was doing was impactful or it was in any way achieving the goals that I was hoping to achieve. And so I think, you know, at that point, I decided, well, maybe this isn't for me. And I feel like, you know, it's really important for people to understand that there is a way to move away from engineering manager and back to an IC role if this is something that you've tested and decided you didn't want.ADRIANA: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think...I think that's that's what's really important is to know that it's not...it's not the be all, end all. It's also important to know that, like, some people are very suited for engineering management roles, and they love it. And, you know, we need people like that. We need all kinds of people.ADRIANA: For me personally, you know, like, you're...you're asking, like, where did I get the FOMO from? So my first job out of school, I worked at Accenture. And the mentality there, I don't know how it is now, but certainly when I joined, it was, you started off as an analyst coding in the trenches. That that was, like, you were expected to, quote unquote, pay your dues by writing code, and then you were rewarded by being promoted to management. And so for me, that was like, okay, this is what needs to happen. And I think, you know, like, it's fine. It's a fine career path. But for me, it didn't...it really didn't make a lot of sense. And when I left, I was actually on track to being...If I had stayed, I would have gotten promoted to manager. But I felt at a place in my career where I'm like, I know nothing. How can I manage a technical team when I don't feel like I know enough? So I actually, like, I made a lateral move to another company so I could, like, improve my technical skills so that I could feel like, okay, if and when I become manager, I feel like I can, you know, manage my team effectively because I can call the bullshit on anything that's being, you know, that's...that's being thrown my way. So, yeah, that was...that was kind of my...my path to, uh, my...my topsy turvy path to management.ALEX: So, yeah, I, um. Yeah, that's funny. I. I very much felt the same way where I felt like I needed to know the tech in order to be able to be an effective manager. And, you know, I...I think there's some merit to that. I also feel like there's...it's a bit of a double edged sword, right? Like, if...if you know the tech too well, you...you may never feel confidence in what your engineers are telling you...and, you know, there's that sense of, like, oh, well, you know, what? If I could just do it myself in...in less amount of time? How does that feel? How does that feel compared to, like, asking someone else to do the work? And I ended up managing a team that I was a lead on for a very long time. And so I think that was one of my challenge, was I always felt this need to jump back into the code and write code. And I know a lot of organizations, they talk about how managers should write code, and I feel like there's enough to do as a manager that you don't necessarily need to think about writing code. And I feel like that's...that's maybe a disservice to people that go from engineering to engineering management.Is that responsibility that is put on those engineers now, engineering managers, to still think about writing code? Sure, you could still write code, but there's so many other things that you could be doing to unblock people that are working and reporting to you that you should probably change your mindset a little bit and focus on that.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's a very interesting point of view. And I do wonder if, I think you end up with two flavors, though, of engineering managers as a result, because then you've got the pure people manager, engineering managers, and then you've got the ones who are kind of straddling both worlds, which I have to admit, I was one of those ones who was, like, trying to stay current in some form and just doing something technical, because for me, I didn't want to lose the skills. But also, I realized that when I go through large stretches of not coding, I actually get very depressed. So I wonder if that's more just a symptom of the, maybe engineering management isn't for me because I'd rather code. Or maybe I also know people who love doing both. They love the people management, but they also want to do the hands on stuff.ALEX: Yeah. And I think I want to say that there's definitely different types of engineering managers, and I've seen amazing, and I've seen terrible managers in both cases that you listed, right? Like, I've seen people managers who were absolutely terrible at managing team, even though they might have had success in other environments. And I've also seen people who are people managers who do a tremendous job of, you know, working with their...with their engineers and still achieving, you know, what I would expect an engineering manager to achieve. And that, you know, they're able to, like, work well across their organization. They're able to, like, help career development with their engineers and all the other stuff. And I have also seen terrible, terrible, very technical engineering managers who, much like I was, knew too much about the code and kind of looked over your shoulder as you're making changes just to make sure that it's up to their standard. And you're like, well, okay, at some point, you have to start trusting the engineers on your team. So, yeah, I mean, I think, I, I don't think one category or the other is going to be like a shoe in for this will be a perfect manager. I think that's like a misconception from some organizations where they have these requirements, how technical someone should be or whatever.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. But you bring up an important point which I think anyone going into management needs to do, which is like, you have to trust your team. You have to let go of that perfectionism. And, you know, they always say, like, delegate, delegate, delegate, and, but it's so hard, especially when you're coming up from being an individual contributor into a management position where you like to have that extra bit of control and I, and letting go of that control and trusting in your people to do the thing can be so hard, especially if you have some shitty people working for you that, that kind of, like, give you no reason to trust them. So that can be so hard.ALEX: Yeah, it could definitely, definitely have, like, a negative impact. And maybe this is where the trauma comes from. You know, erode the trust that you have in people in general, and bad experiences are everywhere. So, you know, I think. I think you're right that you do have to trust them to a certain extent, you know, and things are not working out. Having those, like, frequent check ins with people and trying to, like, understand why things are not working the way that you would expect them, I think is really important.ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, as a manager, I had, like, a day dedicated to my one on ones, and my last job, I managed two teams. It was like 13 people. So, like, my Thursday, a lot of one on ones. So, like, I would have to alternate. They were every other week where, like, one week was one team, the other week was the other team. So for me, it was like, every week, Thursday is full of one on ones. And as much as, like, most days, most Thursdays, I just wanted to run away screaming and not have the one on ones. I knew that that was like, that's the opportunity to connect with, with the people that, you know, you're managing. And if you miss one, you kind of miss those opportunities to, like, really help them out if they're struggling or, you know, doing stuff to help them do better, to sort of supercharge them, give them superpowers. But, yeah, it's, it's, it's like that necessary evil. I don't know how you felt about, about the one on ones.ALEX: Yeah, I think I think one on ones were great. They're great in general. I do feel like, as a manager, learning how to use them effectively to, you know, because it's easy to have a one on one where you're just, you know, talking about whatever's happening in someone's life, and that's fine. I think it's a good way to connect, especially for organizations where people are remote. You know, you have to have those kind of connection points that just share a little bit of what's happening in people's day to day. But I also think it's important to go into a one on one with a plan, because it's easy otherwise to just have those discussions and not have a chance to maybe address something that is problematic or finding time to celebrate someone's wins or whatever. There's just things that people maybe don't leverage one on ones enough as managers.I'm curious, what is, like, one thing you wish you knew as an engineer manager, like, when you started, what is, like, the one thing that you would expect, hope that everybody knows?ADRIANA: Huh...that's a good question. I think the...I think...don't....don't underestimate the amount of time you have to put in with...um...like...really making sure that...like, I don't want to say keeping tabs on your team, because, like, that, that sounds micromanaging, and that was not my style. But, like, you really have to be...you have to be in the know of what's going on with...with your team in some form or another. Um, and I think that that's something that you kind of underestimate. I don't know, I kind of had these romantic views of, like, managers where it's like, oh, they just sit around doing nothing. But no, that's not true.They have to keep tabs on all sorts of things, not only at the team level, but also at the, you know, to their direct manager to, like, to keep abreast of what's going on in the organization. And I think, oh, I know a good way to answer your question is I think a lot of people don't realize how much of a shit umbrella a manager tends to be, because I think, like, a good manager does have to protect their team to a certain extent, not to the point where, like, they know nothing, but, like, you know, I think there's got to be, like, some sort of shielding where you're not overstressing your team and keeping them away from, like, kind of the bullshit that's happening above. So...but they also have to be aware of the stuff that's happening so that they're also not naïve and you don't want them to be like, well, you know, upper management is a bunch of idiots and they have no idea what's going on. So you have to kind of, like, be very, very deliberate with your communications and effective in them so as to, like, attain that balance. I think that was probably, like, the hardest, hardest thing for me.ALEX: Right. I think you definitely have to be a filter of some sort, because if you don't act as a filter between what's happening, you know, a level above or whatever, your team and your team, then there's that potential of always distracting your team with things that may never happen or things that may not be relevant at the time. And so, you know, I think part of what's allowing someone to be an effective manager is to allow people to focus on, you know, what is the most important deliverable at a particular point in time. And, you know, how do you...how do you do that if you just keep interrupting your team with all of the different questions that come to you as an engineering manager? And I feel like there's, you know, maybe...maybe this is where, like, the people that are technical have a bit of an advantage as a...as an um...because, you know, maybe they're being asked, hey, like, what does feature X look like if we wanted to implement it? Well, maybe, you know, if you're a technical manager, you...you might be able to answer this question a little bit.ADRIANA: Yeah.ALEX: Or you might have to, you know, pull someone in if you're..if you're not a technical manager.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of navigating that fine line of, like, how...how much toil do you create for your own team? Because you also don't want to panic them. Like, I used to think, oh, you know, as a manager, I'll be, like, fully transparent on all the things, and then you quickly realize that, like, that is the most terrible idea ever because you are stressing people unnecessarily. Like, no, no, no, no.ALEX: Right?ADRIANA: Yeah. And especially, like you said, they're like, what are you gonna do? Stress people out about something that may or may not happen? Like, wait till it becomes a thing and then have those conversations, but until then, like, the best thing you can do is just sort of keep it under...under wraps until the thing actually materializes and then have those conversations.ALEX: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really important. As I took on engineering management the same way you did where I thought, okay, well, my team are all, you know, people that I used to work with. Whatever, whatever gets sent my way, I'm just going to let them be aware of it because, you know, they're all, they're all very intelligent people. I, you know, they're going to be able to handle it. And, like, at some point, it just became way too much, too many distractions happening all at once. And, you know, that was a very challenging learning experience for sure, because, you know, once you...once you said these things out there, like, you can't really just, like, say, all right, forget like, the last, like, ten minutes of interactions. Just don't worry about all those things that you're worrying about now.ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. So how about you? What was, like, the most eye-opening manager thing for you?ALEX: Oh, I wrote a whole, like, post on my journey back to an individual contributor at some point after I left management. I think most of my learnings are in there, but I think identifying what brings you joy as, as a manager and, like, really leaning into how you, how you can feel like you're getting value out of your, you know, your day to day is really, really important. And for me, I never, I never quite got to the place where the thing that I could have gotten joy out of as an, as a manager gave me enough joy to, like, keep me going in that role forever. I think, like, you know, I like you. I always find that it's way more fun to solve problems on a... on a coding basis rather than solving the people problem that you have to do deal with as a manager. And, yeah, I think that was probably the biggest...the biggest learning is just like, maybe before or, like, as you start becoming a manager, trying to identify what are the things that, you know, make me feel good about my...my...what I...how effective I am in my role and how can, how can I keep track of those things for myself so that I can get that kind of positive reinforcement or, like, feedback cycle.ADRIANA: Yeah.ALEX: The best advice I ever got, though, I think, was someone said to me that. So, so, you know, I was going from, like, a technical lead on my team to, like, managing the team. And the best advice I got was to lean into my new peer group. And, you know, I think that's something that a lot of managers who end up managing the team that they were part of struggle with and, you know, because you would go out and, you know, hang out with the people that you work with. And when you become their manager, it's really important to kind of build a little bit of a distinction there because, you know, it...it's important to, I feel like if you don't build that kind of distinction between your, what was your peer group and your current peer group, which would be the other managers, then it's really impossible to do that. First, the previous thing that you were talking about, which was to kind of filter things out because, you know, and it's not trying to be deceptive or anything, but if you're going out and hanging out with the people that you were working with as individual contributors, you know, you will probably lean on them to, you know, talk about the challenges that you're having at work.ADRIANA: Yeah.ALEX: And that's not, that's not necessarily a good thing for...for someone who's reporting to you to hear, you know, the things that you're struggling with as a manager. I'm not trying, you know, I wouldn't say that you have to be deceptive, but with the struggles that you have, it's a lot more helpful to lean into that new peer group, which would be the other managers and that kind of stuff, I feel like that's, that was the best advice I got. Unfortunately, I didn't follow it. So that was, that was another one of my struggles.ADRIANA: It's hard advice to follow because, like, especially when you're going from, like, you know, either, like, even going from team lead to manager, like, it's, it's a definite, like, it's a change. And so when you're, when you're used to being buddies with, with your coworkers and then all of a sudden you're managing them, it's like, it's such a hard switch to flick in your mind because, you know, it's like, why can't we be friends? But also, like, as you said, if you, if you share your struggles with, with the folks that you're managing, in some ways it can kind of demoralize them because, you know, like, you're their leader. And now it's almost, I don't want to say it shows weakness, but it definitely, like, you look different in their eyes. How can they, how can they see you as, like, you know, the, how can they see you properly as a manager if...if you're showing, like, this...this side of you that you really shouldn't be exposing as a manager? It's kind of, it's a balancing act.ALEX: Right? It said this, that, you know, fine line between, like, a professional life and a personal life. And, like, when you're...when you're sharing some of your personal life with. With people that you work with, it does become a challenge to, you know, if, say, something happens with, you know, one of..,the...one of the people on your team that was reporting to you and you're friends with them, you know, turning around and saying, okay, now we have to have a serious conversation about your performance at work. Like that. That's a really tough thing to do for people, both for the recipient of the...of the feedback and the person who has to give the feedback. You know, you don't really want to be that person who has to, like, put someone on, like, a performance improvement plan that you, you know, hang out with all the time like that. I feel like that's...hat's. That's almost a...yeah, it's really tough to balance that kind of line between the two.ADRIANA: Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I think, for me, that was definitely one of the hardest things where I came into management, thinking, let's all be friends, and it's like, yeah, it doesn't quite work out that way because sometimes you got to crack the whip and you kind of got to be a little bit, you know, mean. I don't want to say mean, but, like, you got to be stern because otherwise, like, sometimes, like, when you're too chummy, people kind of take advantage of your goodwill, right? Like, oh, we're friends. It's fine. I can get away with whatever.ALEX: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's definitely something to be said about. About keeping that relationship professional and yeah, I don't know. It's just a really hard thing to do for someone who. Who you were, like, friends with and then having to go to managing them. I feel like, as a first time manager, if you're being put in a position where you have to manage a team of people that you were friends with, I would definitely request that not to be the case for anybody out there thinking about getting into management. I think organizations would do really well of giving, like, first time managers the opportunity to learn the management bits without having any kind of, like, prior relationship.ADRIANA: Yeah.ALEX: Kind of boundaries to deal with in their past. So that's actually one of the things that was in, I think, "An Elegant Puzzle", I think, is the name of the book, and, you know, it's a. It's a great book about how to become an engineering manager and what challenges to look for and what red flags to look for. And, you know, one of the things that you. That suggested in that book, if memory serves. I could have been reading something else, but I think that's, that was one, is to, you know, have, like, a small team. I think it's like four to six people, and ideally, these are people that you haven't, you know, they're not your previous team, and you're not trying to manage your previous kind of peers. Yeah, that's a great book. Also, for anybody who, who's looking into this, I think Will Larson maybe is the author, I can't remember.ADRIANA: I'll definitely include in the show notes.ALEX: Excellent.ADRIANA: Yeah, that's...that's definitely really good advice. What about, you know, the going beyond manager has for you personally, has, like, going beyond manager to, like, director or VP? Has that ever been, like, at any point, like, especially when you were a manager? Did that ever tickle your fancy?ALEX: I have never had director FOMO. Just gonna throw this out there. I've never had FOMO around becoming a director. I think once I became a manager, I kind of...I think I just learned enough about the things that you would have to do to be a director and an effective director, and I just...it never really lined up with things that I was interested in. Yeah. What about you?ADRIANA: Yeah, I have to agree. I...for...for a while...fo I have to admit that I did have director FOMO, but it was, like, for all the wrong reasons. And it was basically like, where am I in relation to my peers at my career right now? All of my peers from university are, like, you know, directors or vps or whatever. And so for a long time, I used to be, like, really down to myself thinking, well, I'm not manager. I'm not a director. I'm a loser. Like, obviously I'm not successful. And for me, the most liberating thing was getting out of that mindset and realizing that success is what makes you happy in your career and finding a little niche that you can call your own and thriving in that and making a difference in that little corner. And I think as soon as I realized that, and then as soon as....in my last management role, as soon as I realized what was involved in being a director, I was like, um...no. Thank you, but no.ALEX: Yeah, I echo that 100%. I feel like...like, for me, director just meant that you were in meetings all day long and didn't find time to do anything else. And I feel like that, that alone is, like, is enough of a requirement for me not to be in, you know, overly interested in the role yeah, but, yeah, I agree on...on the potential for FOMO, because you do, you know, we do compare ourselves to our peers and, you know, depending on which peer group, maybe people that you were into university or whatever, too, but...and it is tempting once you see this, you're like, oh, well, what if I became this...this role? And then, you know, I think...I think that's actually why a lot of people end up in those roles, you know, because some folks just...either they get stuck in an engineering manager role and they don't feel like there is a way back out of that role, or they see a lot of people that follow that pattern. They're like, oh, well, this is what I should be doing as well. And I think it's very unfortunate. I feel like, I like when I find directors and engineering managers that love what they're doing, and I think that they're really fun to work with. And the people that aren't into it, you can always kind of tell, like, it's that, you know, they struggle through some of those roles, and it's...yeah, it's just unfortunate if. If you got there, because it's not the thing that you wanted, but it's the thing that you thought you needed. Yeah, it's...ADRIANA: And I'd say it's like, it's. It's never too late to reevaluate. Like, I actually interviewed someone for this podcast who was in a director role, and he decided, and he'd gotten into management very, very early in his career, and he decided after being a director for a bit, he was like, oh, I kind of just want to be an IC now, which is super cool. And I...and there's nothing wrong with, like, changing your mind and then changing your mind again, because maybe, like, you just needed a little mental break from being a manager or being an IC or whatever. I think that's totally cool, too. And I think. I think that's another really important lesson that I wish I had known earlier on in my career, is that not everything is final. Like, you're almost, like, led to believe at an early age that, like, the career you choose is, like, it for you.ALEX: Right? I just think of those, like, high school...high school questionnaires. What will you be when you grow up?ADRIANA: Right? Yeah. Like, I definitely didn't imagine this, but that's cool. I'm rolling with it and. Yeah. Like, change your mind. It's okay. Change your mind many times. It's totally fine as long as you're happy doing what you're doing.ALEX: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like, I feel like you're right. You know, some people, maybe they were a manager somewhere and things were not exactly where they expected, and then they go back to an IC role and then maybe they try management again, you know, for like six months or something. You know, this is, this is actually what I did. I was an EM for like two years, then I was an IC for like three years, and then I was a manager for six months. So, you know, it's important to try things out and see if the circumstances change the role enough that, you know, you may find happiness in a different director role or whatever. Like, there's nothing wrong with trying it out, but I feel like one of the important things for, for people to understand is that people that move away from engineering management back to an IC role. And for me, my experience has been that I've been a much more effective individual contributor after being a manager.Like, after understanding what happens kind of beyond that management role and seeing how organizations function at different levels, I think is really helpful for IC role because it's an opportunity to really understand how your work impacts the rest of your organization, how you can maybe impact your manager so that they can be free to do better work or whatever it is. Like, there's just like a lot of learnings that happen at that stage, and I think that's, that's super valuable, even if it doesn't end up being the role for you.ADRIANA: Yeah, I agree. It gives you a lot of empathy, right? Because it's so easy for us to be judgy. I remember, like, my first manager out of school, I was like, ah, this guy's an idiot. He doesn't know what he's doing. I was like, no dude is going through all this stuff behind the scenes that you don't even know about. Stop being so damn naïve.ALEX: Right. Not...not really understanding what's happening behind that manager meeting door is. Yeah, I mean, and, and how would you know this, right? Like we talked about earlier, like, if you have a good manager that filters out the nonsense that you don't have to worry about, you know, great. That means that your team will never need to know about the things that they don't need to know about. And, you know, since they're not taking out for beers, they're not going to vent to you and tell you about how their day went, so.ADRIANA: Yeah, totally agree. Final thing, I was curious. This happened to me a couple of times. I remember both times when I went from manager to IC and I was applying for the IC roles. I remember interviewing and the interviewer is like, you know this is an IC role, right? I'm like, yeah, I don't know if you ever encountered that yourself when you were switching back to IC.ALEX: No, I wrote a whole blog post about it, and anyone who's ever asked me about if I want to be manager again, I just send them to this blog post and I tell them, here's the thing, so you have to understand as to why I don't want to be a manager at this point.ADRIANA: Awesome. I will be sure to link to your blog post in the show notes before we part ways. Do you have any final words of wisdom or hot takes that you would like to share with our audience?ALEX: I have no hot takes, unfortunately. But yeah, I don't know. I guess on the topic of career paths and engineering management, if you think it's for you, you should try it out and find a group that will support you in doing it. And if it doesn't work out, know that there's a way out.ADRIANA: Yes, there's always the off ramp.ALEX: Yep.ADRIANA: It's very comforting. Very comforting to know that.ALEX: Right. There is a future beyond it. If it doesn't work out for you, it's not the. It's not. You will not be trapped there forever. Or at least hopefully you will not be trapped there forever. I don't know.ADRIANA: Yes. Hopefully not. Fingers crossed. Awesome. Well, thanks, Alex, so much for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and and our guests on social media. Until next time...ALEX: Peace out and geek out.ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.