Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Olen Nick Miles ja olen johtanut haitallisesta roolista muutamia kertoja alkuperäisissä vuosina. Pohjallisuudessa ja poliittisessa rauhallisuudessa, joiden jälkeen maa on tullut yhä laajemmaksi rauhallisuudesta. BBC-kysymyksen järjestäjällä Nawal Al-Meghafi, joka on huomannut haitallisesti, olen johtanut haitallisen demokraattisen aktivistin Monique Kleskaan.
women's rights group organiser Pascal Solage and Diana Manilla Arroyo, who works for the medical charity Médecins Sans Frontières in the Haitian capital Port-au-Prince. Together we will talk about Haiti's current problems, but also look at the people who are working hard to resolve them and prove that their country is far from being beyond hope.
The lazy shorthand, the cliché, if you like, for Haiti is that it's the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. A hopeless case that's not known stability for decades, where violent gangs rule and international aid providers are fighting a losing battle with the chaos.
Chapter 2: What are the current challenges facing Haiti?
But let's interrogate that narrative a bit. First of all, some basics. Haiti is a country in the Caribbean, neighboring the Dominican Republic. Eleven million people live there. It famously gained independence from France over 200 years ago after a slave revolt.
A bold start for a new nation, but countless times since then it's been hit by waves of political violence and natural disasters. Poverty has led to hundreds of thousands of people leaving, looking for a better life abroad. But over the next half hour we'll be hearing from people who say it doesn't have to be that way.
Yes, there are huge problems. The government is only in control of small parts of the capital, Port-au-Prince. And we won't gloss over any of that or any of the other challenges that Haiti faces. What we will do is look at the seeds of change that can break the cycle of violence and instability. We're going to do that in the company of three people who know Haiti extremely well.
Noelle Al-Meghafi on BBC's investigations correspondent. She's been in Haiti twice this year, speaking to gang members and others trying to get by. Monique Kleska is a Haitian, a political rights activist, normally based in Port-au-Prince. Pascal Solage is another Haitian woman and runs a women's rights organisation for victims of sexual violence in Port-au-Prince.
We're going to start though with something that they're all very familiar with. Wael and I caught up with Diana Mania Arroyo, who ran the medical charity MSF in Port-au-Prince until earlier this year. She began by telling us the difficulties facing people in Haiti right now.
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Chapter 3: How is sexual violence impacting women in Haiti?
Minun täytyy aloittaa seksuaalisuuteen. Tämä on jotain, jota näemme ensimmäisenä, koska teemme projekti vuonna 2015, joka antaa ymmärrettävän terveyden- ja psykologisen huoltoa ihmisille, jotka kokevat seksuaalisuutta. Se ei ole vain se, kuinka monia asioita on erittäin kiinnostavaa, vaan se on myös se, kuinka monimutkaisuus on muuttunut.
So survivors talk about the number of aggressors increasing, sometimes two, sometimes five, sometimes twenty. Survivors also talk about the use of weapons, sometimes that aggressors use to rape them with, sometimes to hit them in the head, so that...
People become unconscious and it is easier to abuse of them. Also the dynamics of the aggressions has changed. So many of our patients talk about how they were aggressed in their own homes, because when armed groups come to new areas that they want to take control, they break into people's houses and they rape women, whether they are 15 years old or whether they are 65 years old.
No while the breakdown in security across particularly Port-au-Prince means that children are also at risk. A lot of children are not at school because schools are closed in many areas. So it's a problem for children as well.
Yes, it is. I mean, just speaking to what Diana was talking about, when we were in Port-au-Prince, I went to the safe house for victims of sexual abuse. And the lady that runs the safe house took us to meet people at the balcony. And when we got there, it was all these very young girls.
I thought that these were the children of the victims that we were about to meet. And then I was actually told that these were the survivors of sexual violence. Everyone in Haiti is touched by this. So many of the women, if not the majority of the women I spoke to when we were in Port-au-Prince,
have experienced some sort of sexual violence living in the city. And their testimony is some of the most horrific I've ever heard covering the story. Talking about multiple assailants, talking about how they were raped in front of their husbands and children and then saw their partners killed in front of them.
One of the things that really caught my eye when we were in Port-au-Prince is whilst we were covering these horrific stories, it was amazing to see these young girls and young children coming out of school in the morning and in the afternoons, because it just reminds you of how life goes on and a bit of normalcy. So I started looking into it and then I found out that these were private schools and the majority of schools that are still running in Port-au-Prince are only private schools.
There are barely any state schools that are still functioning. Many of them have been turned into IDP camps to house people that have fled the neighborhoods that have been taken over by the gangs. And others are in gang-controlled territory being used by the gangs. And Diana, in terms of supporting children with psychological trauma as well, what kind of help is there out there for that in Haiti?
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Chapter 4: What role do local organizations play in supporting communities?
We see severe mental health trauma resulting from sexual violence and sometimes including suicidal ideation. In 2018 we did a study and we looked at the various factors contributing to the psychological issues that survivors presented. 68%, so more than half, cited stigma as one of the major challenges they faced and this is because of
blaming, judging, survivor's behavior and also family rejection. Diana, I just wanted to move on to another aspect of the problems. It's that kind of financial insecurity, this widespread unemployment. People are in the casual sector just eking out a living. We've been speaking in Port-au-Prince with a local reporter and we heard from a couple of people living in the capital about the challenges they're facing.
Minun elämä ei ole hyvä minulle. Minulla on 13 lasta. Kaikki ovat muuttuneet. Minä olen ainoa jälkeen. Minä olen asunut paikassa, koska olen pysynyt maahanmuuttajani. En ole voinut pysyä maahanmuuttajaksi seitsemän vuotta. Minulla ei ole kukaan auttanut minua ja en saa mitään hallituksesta. Ainoa on, että Jumala suojaa minua. Minä olen ainoa jälkeen. Minä olen ainoa jälkeen. Minä olen ainoa jälkeen.
I'm a mechanic and a driver too. I no longer have a job. I now live at my mum's. I come to this public square to spend all day here and then go home. I have nothing. Sometimes I feel like killing myself. But no, that would be cowardly. Life is such an important gift. And people do take their own lives and take risks with their lives because of the situation that they're in at the moment, don't they, Diana?
Kyllä, noin 10 prosenttia seksuaalisuusvaihtoehtoja, joita näemme, sanoo, että erityisesti stigma voisi pysyä heitä suuntaan. Nyt puhun vain seksuaalisuudesta, mutta näemme myös muita tapauksia. Meillä on paljon tilanteita, jotka antaa traumakäyttöä.
For example, between the beginning of the year and June, we supported over 2,000 survivors of violence in the city, including many civilians who are hit by stray bullets. 40% of them are women and children.
I think it's important to translate it into how it looks on a day-to-day basis for the average Haitian. I also see it through my own medical staff that has to leave their house to come to the medical facilities that we run. The risk of stray bullet is high. The risk of finding oneself in the middle of crossfire is high. It's an extremely challenging city to live, but indeed life does go on amazingly well.
A challenge for people to live in. What about working in Port-au-Prince? Noelle, you went there several times, and even as an international journalist, with all the backup that that comes with, it's a challenge, isn't it? It's incredibly difficult, but safety is definitely the biggest difficulty that you face day to day. I mean, we went in in a bubble.
But there was a lot of planning involved, right? We went to a nice hotel that had generators to take the place of when the state electricity cuts off. We had clean water. But that's not what the average Haitian has in Port-au-Prince. We drove around in armoured vehicles.
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Chapter 5: How are Haitians resisting the violence and chaos?
And we saw it with our very own eyes. We were driving around Port-au-Prince in our armoured vehicles. And then some shooting broke out between gang members and police. And there was this bus full of people who were heading to work, which had to just kind of hide behind cover as people were shooting across from either side of it. And this is what day-to-day life is like for the average Haitian in Port-au-Prince.
As we record this podcast, about a thousand members of an international police and military force approved by the UN are on the ground in Haiti. To what extent is that helping the situation? They are in these big armoured vehicles. It's very hard for them to move around. And the gang members in their hundreds...
are armed and agile and can you know run around and shoot at the tires of these armored vehicles you know in one instance we were with them they shot at our tires they went flat and we kind of had to limp in these armored vehicles out of gang hell territory and it just gives you an idea of how little they can do because they're terrified of stepping out of these vehicles during our trip i went to meet one of the gang leaders his name was vaj
I asked him if he was afraid of the Kenyans. He said no, because how are they going to differentiate between us and civilians? We're embedded in society here and they're not going to be able to kind of sift us out. He also gave me an idea of who they're going up against, these fanatics basically. We can hear a little bit from him now, can't we?
When we're fighting, we are possessed. We are no longer human. We become the devil. Do you understand? We are people when like this you sit and talk to us, but if we're cornered, we come out swinging. As a gang leader, it's my duty to fight. I will never give up until the state sits down with us. The dialogue will be good for us, but until then, we'll fight. It's the wealthy state that has decided to take us on.
Kuuntelijana on haitallinen akademinen ja pro-demokraattinen aktiivinen Moni Gleska. Moni, kuitenkaan mitä olemme kuulleet, niin mitä uskomme, että haitalliset ja muut haitalliset ovat, että tämä Kenyän liittyvä sääntö ei ole mitenkään vaikuttanut?
We do not, a lot of us, do not believe that it's a question of faith in the Kenyan force. I think it is a question of faith in the Haitians' capacity to resist and to mobilize. Unfortunately, we do not have competent forces.
Oikeuksia, jotka ovat valmiita tekemään, mitä pitäisi tehdä. Ja tämä menee vuosina. Tämä on ihmisen tehtävä kriisi. Viime aikoina heillä oli testit poliisijoille ja poliisijoille. Heillä oli yli 8000 testiä.
Haitian naiset ja naiset, jotka halusivat olla poliitikkoja. Heillä oli testit armeijaan. Heillä oli yli 2 000, jotka halusivat olla armeijaan. Joten mitä tapahtuu? He eivät laittaa tarpeeksi rahaa treeniin. Heillä ei ole tarpeeksi opettajia. Ja se ei ole osa ajattelua, jota haitaiset voivat käyttää.
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Chapter 6: What is the significance of international support for Haiti?
Monique, that's an extremely well made point. And I think now we can speak to a Haitian woman called Pascale Solage, who runs an organization called Nigues Mawon, a women's rights organization that particularly helps victims of sexual violence. Hello, thanks very much for joining us, Pascale.
Thank you for the invitation and good morning everyone. Pascal, I was interested in reading one of the things you've been doing is trying to help women take part in and have a real impact on public affairs. How are you trying to do that and encourage people to do that?
Doing advocacy, political advocacy is a part of the work. Being in places where we can advocate for saying that women need to be in those places. Women need to be part of the decision. Women need to be part of the fate of this country. It's really important.
Kaupungilla on nukkuja, jotka protestelevat viollisuudesta, viollisuudesta, protestelevat viollisuudesta, protestelevat viollisuudesta, protestelevat viollisuudesta, protestelevat viollisuudesta, protestelevat viollisuudesta, protestelevat viollisuudesta, protestelevat viollisuudesta, protestelevat viollisuudesta, protestelevat viollisuudesta,
It's being citizen, and being citizen, it's the right to be part of all the process we can see in the country, where they have to take decision to participate in decision for the country. It's to educate the young women. Monique, do you see political apathy, perhaps if it has developed in Haiti over the last few years, being driven away by grassroots organizations like that?
Yes, because there is a lot of training that is going on. And there is a certain amount of investment in community. As a matter of fact, recently, in addition to other things that are being on, there is a Fokula initiative that I'm part of. And we actually had an incubator of three weeks with 25 basically high school students involved.
teach them about leadership and about citizenship and about developing community projects based on their leadership skills and there are other things like this that are that is going on so the involvement of youth because another data set that is important is that 64 percent
of the Haitian population is under 24 years old. So not only does it mean that it is important to get them involved as citizens and build their citizenship a type of democracy, He rakentavat koulutuksensa siitä, jotta he voivat osallistua. Se myös antaa huomioon hallitukseen, että sosiaalinen oikeus on tärkeä osa kaikkia kehityksiä.
Noel, in your trips to Haiti, what examples have you seen of that? People at a local level really thinking towards the future, a new Haiti, where things function and there is security for people.
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Chapter 7: What vision do activists have for Haiti's future?
I'm really glad you asked that question, because I think we do always focus on talking about the gangs and the gang leaders and the fighting when we talk about Haiti. But what really struck me about Haiti is the people's resilience. And you spoke about the local men within neighborhoods that keep their neighborhoods secure. We went to Pakor and to Kemskoff and we spent time with the vigilantes, young men who, when we were filming with them, covered their faces with balaclavas because they didn't want the gangs to be able to...
Kiitos. He take it in rotation to keep their neighbourhoods secure. Just behind these men there was a market that had women and children and families getting food, going shopping. They're trying because the government is unable to, trying to keep their neighbourhoods safe and to keep the gangs away. Also
When we were doing the story about sexual violence, we went to all these safe houses to meet these women. And a lot of these safe houses, one of them run by Neges Mawan actually, are run by Haitian women. And when we speak to them about, you know, they come every day, they do courses to give these women agencies to be able to take care of themselves when they leave these safe houses.
He tekevät koulutuksia, he tekevät koulutuksia, he tekevät koulutuksia, he tekevät koulutuksia, he tekevät koulutuksia, he tekevät koulutuksia.
It's incredible. I mean, it's terrifying, but also quite inspiring to see them come to work every day and to have that kind of resilience and want to make a change in Haiti. And also in the food distribution sites, we went to multiple food distribution sites where people would come to these kitchens to get food for the day, all run by local Haitian organizations, people coming together to provide for their communities. It was incredible to see.
Pascal Solage, mitä jatkuu motivoimaan sinua? Tietysti tunnet, että Haitiissa on edelleen mahdollisuus muuttaa.
Because it's our country. Because it's a place where a million people are living. Because we are the ones who can ask, but also act for the change. In Neges Mauo sometimes we are receiving 20 women asking for help at Neges Mauo. Survivors of violence, but also displaced women, but also pregnant young girls from rape, but also people with economic problems.
Joten nämä ihmiset, mitä heillä on, se on Haiti, se on heidän maansa. Ja se on meidän oikeus vahvistaa tätä maata ja vahvistaa sitä maata, jota haluamme nähdä, sitä maata, jota tarvitsemme. Meidän on tehtävä työ, koska ihmiset ovat paikoissa, jotka eivät tee heidän työtään. Joten meidän on tehtävä työ, koska se, mitä meillä on, on itseämme.
Monique, I suppose it's worth mentioning also that Haiti has some advantages as a country. It's not ethnically split. Religious tensions are not high as they are in many other civil wars around the world. The civil war in Lebanon, what went on in Darfur, etc. So Haiti has the potential to have unity and national pride, doesn't it?
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