Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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I think people do need to be brave. And it's easier said than done. It's actually one of the hardest things to do is to find it deep down inside yourself. I'd been a bit burnt because I'd gone to see a publisher. He'd said to me, oh, there's no interest in Pacific stories and, you know, and just don't think this would sell.
Why don't you just write a feature story and sell it to North and South or something? This is probably the happiest time of my life. I don't think I've ever felt this content.
Nau mai haere mai to grey areas with me Petra Baggist. In this episode I put journalist Barbara Drever in the hot seat for a delightful and thoughtful kōrero.
We take a colourful ride through her childhood in Kiribati, her incredible work throughout the Pacific as well as the impact of writing her memoir Be Brave and how it helped her process the pleasure and pain of life including the loss by suicide of her beloved brother. So a warning, we do talk about distressing content around children, child sexual abuse and suicide.
Please take care as you listen. Here's Barbara. Barbara Drever, it is such a delight to sit down with you.
It feels like coming home, I'm not going to lie. It's nice. It's really good. The minute I saw you, it's like, oh, Petra.
Because we've passed in corridors and we've been at awards ceremonies, but I don't think we've ever sat down and just had a korero. We haven't had a talanoa. We haven't just been in each other's company. So I'm having read quite a lot of your book.
Oh, that's good.
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Chapter 2: What motivated Barbara Dreaver to write her memoir 'Be Brave'?
So yeah, that part was fun. Can we go back to you going to somebody and them saying, oh, there's just no real interest in Pacific stories. Isn't that just echoes of your entire career? Yeah. At different points?
At different points, definitely. There's been moments where, you know, I'm strong in myself and determined to... Because I like giving people a platform. You know, their voice is a platform and Pacific people don't get that. So...
I really was fighting for that but yes yeah there's been many moments during my career where I've had to think really fight for it and sometimes it gets exhausting and we all know that feeling don't we so yeah in different you know different ways and so yes it was it was quite it was just another knock back and so when Mary rang and said we'll do it I it it
It made me remember why, okay, yes, let's do this.
Okay, and so shall we just inject some told-you-so joy in this moment? I hear the book, as of recording, was within the first two weeks.
We're looking at a second edition. Well, yes, second edition.
It's been ordered. Yes, it's on its way. No interest in post-effect stories.
Yeah, and it's great because – It's just so important to me, Pacific. The reason I wanted to do it is because I wanted to share, you know, we live in such a turbulent world, don't we? We do. And I wanted to share that the Pacific is so important for New Zealand And I wanted to share its challenges, its beauty, the ugliness side of it, but the joy of it as well.
And I thought if I could just infuse a bit of that into everyday Kiwis' lives. And, of course, it's going elsewhere. It's going to Australia and other places as well. It's out for sale in the Pacific and further afield. So I thought if I could infuse that in and people can just be, even just for as long as they read it, just feel something, then that's great.
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Chapter 3: How did Barbara's childhood influence her career in journalism?
So tracked them down and they turned out to have extremely bad reputations and taking the, you know, not replanting, destroying forests and destroying the country. So I exposed that, and so that whole deal got stopped as a result of that story. Wow. Yeah, so proud of that.
And then the other one is people-based, and that would have been the Focus on Children adoption agency from the U.S., where they—oh, gosh, that's horrific to cover, but— They were adopting children who weren't orphans to American parents. And they're basically, it was basically trafficking, right?
And, you know, they'd hand the kids over to the American parents here at McDonald's in New Zealand. The parents thought they were real orphans. And the Samoan parents were being told, you'll get your kids back. It's like a whangai system, you know. So the adoption in the Pacific is a sharing. It's not a… Ownership. Yeah. But it was just a different concept.
And so they thought they were told they were going to get their kids back when they're 18. They'll be educated. They'll be, you know, have a really well to do and look after you and everything. And it was always poor parents that they approached. And then the children were put into a nanny house, a nanny house, for three months so that they would be officially orphans and then farmed off.
And so I did a lot on that over the years, a lot. Worked with a couple of the local journalists as well. And that one in the end, the FBI stepped in and arrested everyone involved. But I remember just holding this little boy's hand. So we went to the nanny house and filmed there, managed to talk our way into the garden. And I was holding this little boy's hand in my hand.
And I just remember getting really teary because...
i don't know where he's going and that was the point is you don't know where these children are going to end up some of them are good parents some are not so good um and then there were victims too in america the parents who were adopting their children for these children forever and finding out so yeah it was a trade there were no winners in this one and it broke my heart like it really did
There is something about you that – sorry, like I want to go in about 12 different directions, but there's something about you that walks towards difficulty, that talks your way into a garden, into a compound, into a parliament, you know, that – and I think your pursuit of discomfort is so – I feel like we've been bamboozled by this concept in our lives of comfort.
If we just have enough money and enough time, we will be inconvenience free. We will just be, everything will be convenient and comfortable and then we will be happy. And it just feels like this mirage that's utter rubbish because discomfort has the pursuit of justice inside of it, right? Discomfort has the pursuit of health inside of it.
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Chapter 4: What challenges did Barbara face while reporting in the Pacific?
And I think when you lose someone... like in that manner that, and anyone who meets a violent end, I think, like that you've got to try and as time goes on, it becomes a bit easier to remember the good times, the fun, you remember that person laughing and yeah, but it's a terrible thing because we're just loved unto pieces and yeah, and I know he'd be proud. He would be so proud.
He would be so proud of you. So proud of you. Even sitting here and hearing all the things you've covered and the difficulty that you've walked towards and the trauma that you've sat within and beside and that you know what your why is and it's to give voice to stories and to seek the truth. It's amazing, Barbara. Thank you. It is amazing.
Do you have any words of wisdom for people who would approach somebody who's been recently bereaved by suicide? Is there anything you'd say that is like, this is helpful, this is useful?
Oh my gosh. I don't know. I think it's just I don't – I go straight to them. Like, I don't mess around. I don't – well, there's the words that you don't say, and I learned this because people were saying it. You know, you get people who might say, oh, he's gone to somewhere better.
Oh, no. Don't try and make it okay.
Yeah, or silly boy was one I got, and I came close to – Smashing them? Yeah. Yeah. It's things like that. You don't, I would just, you know, go straight to them. You look at people in the eye and you just hold their hand. I try to let people be as well. So sometimes it's not, and I always say it's about making a tribute to that person as well.
So if, and I'd never, you know, we've got to be so careful with suicide. We really do. No, so I don't really cover stories of suicide. But sometimes there'll be an advocate who will want to speak up. And that's a weird thing too. You've got to watch your, you know, it's a disease and it spreads. So I don't like to, I don't think the media, I think the media need to be, and we are.
You are very careful.
I know TVNZ is. Yeah. It's hard, isn't it?
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Chapter 5: How does Barbara define bravery in her work?
Like I think about the fact that your why in journalism does not include becoming more famous or getting more limelight. It's never about that, right? So then you're never going to use somebody else for your own ends.
Yeah, I'm my publicity department at TVNZ's worst nightmare because I just won't do it. And I've done, if I've ever done publicity before I did my book, it was on something to do with my work only. I'll never talk personally about stuff. And, of course, with the book coming out, it's just been... Flipped that script on its head.
Yes, and I had to... It's a different... You know, it's different from my job where I don't... Yeah. So I found that part really difficult. And I don't care if I'm in the piece or not on TV. Like, if I can get away with not doing a piece to camera, I will. I just won't do it. And so, but yeah, but sometimes you just got to, right?
Sometimes you do. Sometimes you have to front up, like it's a discipline to front up to your work. I took a photo as I was reading your book last night because it took me a second in the chapter called Beginning Again, where you leave Rarotonga and you come back to New Zealand and resettle here and end up working for RNZ and TVNZ. There's a sentence, and it starts like this.
Sometimes in life, things just don't work out. And then you carry on, even when you most want them to. In 1998, I left Rarotonga and returned to New Zealand with my baby son to start a new chapter of my life. And I carried on reading, and it wasn't until I'd got through a couple more paragraphs that I read, oh, hang on a second. that sentence or half a sentence is the end of your marriage.
And that is all that is said about that. Yeah, that's all I'll ever say about that. So there's a real discipline to that. sense of that you are part of something. Privacy as well is important. Yes, it is.
And I guard that jealously. I don't want to share my life with the world. I just don't. I'm really not interested in that. Like, my life is my life. And I'm in this for this, you know, well, I'm known for my professional stories. And so those I will share. And even sharing about my brother's death, that's been a big deal. And also, I don't want to disrespect people.
I don't want people to, just because you're angry at a situation as a mum or as a wife or an ex-wife, I don't – if I speak about stuff like that, then only one person gets hurt, and that's your child, right? And so I would never do that publicly. What I feel privately, I will deal with it. But, yeah, it's a terrible traumatic time, but I'm not going to –
I don't go into it and I never will because that's just private. It's private, yeah. And it's something I, you know, that it involves other people. It feels healthy for you.
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Chapter 6: What personal experiences shaped Barbara's understanding of grief?
I love that you share your why. It's so powerful, right? It's such a motivating force. And just to, I've got about 12 more questions, but we're running out of time. The Pacific reporter at TVNZ, Pacific reporter, Edward? Ewart? Oh, yes, Ewart Barnsley. Yeah, yeah. Do you feel like you are now Ewart?
Have you stepped into that role? I think, you know, it's so interesting. We were so different in how we approached the Pacific. He taught me how to do beautiful scripting. I don't think I'm quite where he was with the scripting. I mean, he was incredible and he was very generous with his technical expertise and stuff.
In terms of the Pacific, I know a lot about the Pacific, and that is my ground, and I've had so many years in it now that, yeah, I'm definitely – and, of course, I approach the Pacific different than you did – So when we worked together, he would do the event-driven stories and I would come to the table with my own stories. And that's how we balanced it. And we were such a great team.
And it's very hard to work with someone in the same role, right? But we got on like a house on fire. And a lot of it is due to his generosity. And I was so blessed to see him at my book launch. And he came along with his wife and dad. And it was just wonderful.
It feels like another yes and situation. He was the Pacific correspondent. You arrive at TVNZ and rather than him going, there's a small mountain peak and I'm on the top of it, keep away. He was like, yes and, and opened. And you found a role for each other and you supported each other. You were stronger together than you would have been.
We definitely were. And it was in the days too when there was more resources. You could travel a lot more. These days it's harder. It's harder.
Yeah.
And yeah, and there's more, there's competition for time as well. But yeah.
Can I ask you about midlife? How's midlife treating you? I think I'm past my midlife. How are you feeling in the season of your life as a woman? Very well established journalist.
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