Show notes
Eric Topol (00:06):Hello, this is Eric Topol from Ground Truths, and I'm delighted to welcome Owen Tripp, who is a CEO of Included Health. And Owen, I'd like to start off if you would, with the story from 2016, because really what I'm interested in is patients and how to get the right doctor. So can you tell us about when you lost your hearing in your right ear back, what, nine years ago or so?Owen Tripp (00:38):Yeah, it's amazing to say nine years, Eric, but obviously as your listeners will soon understand a pretty vivid memory in my past. So I had been working as I do and noticed a loss of hearing in my right ear. I had never experienced any hearing loss before, and I went twice actually to a sort of national primary care chain that now owned by Amazon actually. And they described it as eustachian tube dysfunction, which is a pretty benign common thing that basically meant that my tubes were blocked and that I needed to have some drainage. They recommended Sudafed to no effect. And it was only a couple weeks later where I was walking some of the senior medical team at my company down to the San Francisco Giants game. And I was describing this experience of hearing loss and I said I was also losing a little bit of sensation in the right side of my face. And they said, that is not eustachian tube dysfunction. And well, I can let the story unfold from there. But basically my colleagues helped me quickly put together a plan to get this properly diagnosed and treated. The underlying condition is called vestibular schwannoma, even more commonly known as an acoustic neuroma. So a pretty rare benign brain tumor that exists on the vestibular nerve, and it would've cost my life had it not been treated.Eric Topol (02:28):So from what I gather, you saw an ENT physician, but that ENT physician was not really well versed in this condition, which is I guess a bit surprising. And then eventually you got to the right ENT physician in San Francisco. Is that right?Owen Tripp (02:49):Well, the first doctor was probably an internal medicine doctor, and I think it's fair to say that he had probably not seen many, if any cases. By the time I reached an ENT, they were interested in working me up for what's known as sudden sensorineural hearing loss (SSHL), which is basically a fancy term for you lose hearing for a variety of possible pathologies and reasons, but you go through a process of differential diagnosis to understand what's actually going on. By the time that I reached that ENT, the audio tests had showed that I had significant hearing loss in my right ear. And what an MRI would confirm was this mass that I just described to you, which was quite large. It was already about a centimeter large and growing into the inner ear canal.Eric Topol (03:49):Yeah, so I read that your Stanford brain scan suggested it was about size of a plum and that you then got the call that you had this mass in your brainstem tumor. So obviously that's a delicate operation to undergo. So the first thing was getting a diagnosis and then the next thing was getting the right surgeon to work on your brain to resect this. So how did you figure out who was the right person? Because there's only a few thousand of these operations done every year, as I understand.Owen Tripp (04:27):That's exactly right. Yeah, very few. And without putting your listeners to sleep too early in our discussion, what I'll say is that there are a lot of ways that you can actually do this. There are very few cases, any approach really requires either shrinking or removing that tumor entirely. My size of tumor meant it was really only going to be a surgical approach, and there I had to decide amongst multiple potential approaches. And this is what's interesting, Eric, you started saying you wanted to talk about the patient experience. You have to understand that I'm somebody, while not a doctor, I lead a very large healthcare company. We provide millions of visits and services per year on very complex medical diagnoses down to more standard day-to-day fare. And so, being in the world of medical complexity was not daunting on the basics, but then I'm the patient and now I have to make a surgical treatment decision amongst many possible choices, and I was able to get multiple opinions.Owen Tripp (05:42):I got an opinion from the House clinic, which is closer to you in LA. This is really the place where they invented the surgical approach to treating these things. I also got an approach shared with me from the Mayo Clinic and one from UCSF and one from Stanford, and ultimately, I picked the Stanford team. And these are fascinating and delicate structures as you know that you're dealing with in the brain, but the surgery is a long surgery performed by multiple surgeons. It's such an exhausting surgery that as you're sort of peeling away that tumor that you need relief. And so, after a 13 hour surgery, multiple nights in the hospital and some significant training to learn how to walk and move and not lose my balance, I am as you see me today, but it was possible under one of the surgical approaches that I would've lost the use of the right side of my face, which obviously was not an option given what I given what I do.Eric Topol (06:51):Yeah, well, I know there had to be a tough rehab and so glad that you recovered well, and I guess you still don't have hearing in that one ear, right?Owen Tripp:That's right.Eric Topol:But otherwise, you're walking well, and you've completely recovered from what could have been a very disastrous type of, not just the tumor itself, but also the way it would be operated on. 13 hours is a long time to be in the operating room as a patient.Owen Tripp (07:22):You've got a whole team in there. You've got people testing nerve function, you've got people obviously managing the anesthesiology, which is sufficiently complex given what's involved. You've got a specialized ENT called a neurotologist. You've got the neurosurgeon who creates access. So it's quite a team that does these things.Eric Topol (07:40):Yeah, wow. Now, the reason I wanted to delve into this from your past is because I get a call or email or whatever contact every week at least one, is can you help me find the right doctor for such and such? And this has been going on throughout my career. I mean, when I was back in 20 years ago at Cleveland Clinic, the people on the board, I said, well, I wrote about it in one of my books. Why did you become a trustee on the board? And he said, so I could get access to the right doctor. And so, this is amazing. We live in an information era supposedly where people can get information about this being the most precious part, which is they want to get the right diagnosis, they want to get the right treatment or prevention, whatever, and they can't get it. And I'm finding this just extraordinary given that we can do deep research through several different AI models and get reports generated on whatever you want, but you can't get the right doctor. So now let's go over to what you're working on. This company Included Health. When did you start that?Owen Tripp (08:59):Well, I started the company that was known as Grand Rounds in 2011. And Grand Rounds still to this day, we've rebranded as Included Health had a very simple but powerful idea, one you just obliquely referred to, which is if we get people to higher quality medicine by helping them find the right level and quality of care, that two good things would happen. One, the sort of obvious one, patients would get better, they'd move on with their lives, they'd return to health. But two and critically that we would actually help the system overall with the cost burden of unnecessary, inappropriate and low quality care because the coda to the example you gave of people calling you looking for a physician referral, and you and I both know this, my guess is you've probably had to clean plenty of it up in your career is if you go to the wrong doctor, you don't get out of the problem. The problem just persists. And that patient is likely to bounce around like a ping pong ball until they find what they actually need. And that costs the payers of healthcare in this country a lot of money. So I started the company in 2011 to try to solve that problem.Eric Topol (10:14):Yeah, one example, a patient of mine who I've looked after for some 35 years contacted me and said, a very close friend of mine lives in the Palm Springs region and he has this horrible skin condition and he's tortured and he's been to six centers, UCSF, Stanford, Oregon Health Science, Eisenhower, UCLA, and he had a full workup and he can't sleep because he's itching all the time. His whole skin is exfoliating and cellulitis and he had biopsies everywhere. He’s put on all kinds of drugs, monoclonal antibodies. And I said to this patient of mine I said, I don't know, this is way out of my area. I checked at Scripps and turns out there was this kind of the Columbo of dermatology, he can solve any mystery. And the patient went to see him, and he was diagnosed within about a minute that he had scabies, and he was treated and completely recovered after having thousands and thousands of dollars of all these workups at these leading medical centers that you would expect could make a diagnosis of scabies.Owen Tripp (11:38):That’s a pretty common diagnosis.Eric Topol (11:40):Yeah. I mean you might expect it more in somebody who was homeless perhaps, but that doesn't mean it can't happen in anyone. And within the first few minutes he did a scrape and showed the patient under the microscope and made a definitive diagnosis and the patient to this day is still trying to pay all his bills for all these biopsies and drugs and whatnot, and very upset that he went through all this for over a year and he thought he wanted to die, it was so bad. Now, I had never heard of Included Health and you have now links with a third of the Fortune 100 companies. So what do you do with these companies?Owen Tripp (12:22):Yeah, it's pretty cool. These companies, so very large organizations like Walmart and JPMorgan Chase and the rest of the big pioneers of American industry and business put us in as a benefit to help their employees have the same experience that I described to provide almost Eric Topol like guidance service to help people find access to high quality care, which might be referring them into the community or to an academic medical center, but often is also us providing care delivery ourselves through on-demand primary care, urgent care, behavioral health. And now just last year we introduced a couple of our first specialty lines. And the idea, Eric, is that these companies buy this because they know their employees will love it and they do. It is often one of, if not the most highly rated benefits available. But also because in getting their employees better care faster, the employees come back to work, they feel more connected to the company, they're able to do better and safer and higher quality work. And they get more mileage out of their health benefits. And you have to remember that the costs of health benefits in this country are inflating even in this time of hyperinflation. They're inflating faster than anything else, and this is one of most companies, number one pain points for how they are going to control their overall budget. So this is a solution that both give them visibility to controlling cost and can deliver them an excellent patient experience that is not an offer that they've been able to get from the traditional managed care operators.Eric Topol (14:11):So I guess there's a kind of multidimensional approach that you're describing. For one, you can help find a doctor that's the right doctor for the right patient. And you're also actually providing medical services too, right?Owen Tripp (14:27):That's right.Eric Topol (14:30):Are these physicians who are employed by Included Health?Owen Tripp (14:34):They are, and we feel very strongly about that. We think that in our model, we want to train people, hire people in a specific way, prepare them for the kind of work that we do. And there's a lot we could spend time talking about there, but one of the key features of that is teamwork. We want people to work in a collaborative model where they understand that while they may be expert in one specific thing that is connected to a service line, they're working in a much broader team in support of the member, in support of that patient. And we talk about the patients being very first here, and you and I had a laugh on this in the past, so many hospitals will say we're patient first. So many managed care companies will say they're patient first, but it is actually hard the way that the system is designed to truly be patient first. At Included Health, we measure whether patients will come back to us, whether they tell their friends about us, whether they have high quality member satisfaction and are they living more healthy days. So everybody gets surveyed for patient reported outcomes, which is highly unusual as you know, to have both the clinical outcomes and the patient reported outcomes as well.Eric Topol (15:41):Is that all through virtual visits or are there physical visits as well?Owen Tripp (15:47):Today that is all through virtual visits. So we provide 24/7/365 access to urgent care, primary care, behavioral health, the start of the specialty clinic, which we launched last year. And then we provide support for patients who have questions about how these things are going to be billed, what other benefits they have access to. And where appropriate, we send them out to care. So obviously we can't provide all the exams virtually. We can't provide everything that a comprehensive physical would today, but as you and I know that is also changing rapidly. And so, we can do things to put sensors and other observational devices in people's homes to collect that data positively.Eric Topol (16:32):Now, how is that different than Teladoc and all these other telehealth based companies? I mean because trying to understand on the one hand you have a service that you can provide that can be extremely helpful and seems to be relatively unique. Whereas the other seems to be shared with other companies that started in this telehealth space.Owen Tripp (16:57):I think the easiest way to think about the difference here is how a traditional telemedicine company is paid and how we're paid because I think it'll give you some clue as to why we've designed it the way we've designed it. So the traditional telehealth model is you put a quarter in the jukebox, you listen to a song when the song's over, you got to get out and move on with the rest of your life. And quite literally what I mean is that you're going to see one doctor, one time, you will never see that same doctor again. You are not going to have a connected experience across your visits. I mean, you might have an underlying chart, but there's not going to be a continuity of care and follow up there as you would in an integrated setting. Now by comparison, and that's all derived from the fact that those telehealth companies are paid by the drink, they're paid by the visit.Owen Tripp (17:49):In our model, we are committing to a set of experience goals and a set of outcomes to the companies that you refer to that pay our bill. And so, the visits that our members enjoy are all connected. So if you have a primary care visit, that is connected to your behavioral health visit, which is great and is as it should be. If you have a primary care appointment where you identify the need for follow-up cardiology for example. That patient can be followed through that cardiology visit that we circle back, that we make sure that the patient is educated, that he or she has all their questions answered. That's because we know that if the patient actually isn't confident in what they heard and they don't follow through on the plan, then it's all for naught. It's not going to work. And it's a simple sort of observation, but it's how we get paid and why we think it's a really important way to think about medicine.Eric Topol (18:44):So these companies, and they're pretty big companies like Google and AT&T and as you said, JPMorgan and the list goes on and on. Any one of the employees can get this. Is that how it works?Owen Tripp (18:56):That's right, that's right. And even better, most of what I've described to you today is at a low or zero cost to them. So this is a very affordable, easy way to access care. Thinking about one of our very large airline clients the other day, we're often dealing with their flight crews and ramp agents at very strange hours in very strange places away from home, so that they don't have to wait to get access to care. And you can understand that at a basic humanitarian level why that's great, but you can also understand it from a safety perspective that if there is something that is impeding that person's ability to be functioning at work, that becomes an issue for the corporation itself.Eric Topol (19:39):Yeah, so it's interesting you call it included because most of us in the country are excluded. That is, they don't have any way to turn through to get help for a really good referral. Everything's out of network if they are covered and they're not one of the fortunate to be in these companies that you're providing the service for. So do you have any peers or are there any others that are going to come into this space to help a lot of these people that are in a tough situation where they don't really have anyone to turn to?Owen Tripp (20:21):Well, I hope so. Because like you, I've dedicated my career to trying to use information and use science and use in my own right to bring along the model. At Included Health, we talk about raising the standard of care for everybody, and what we mean by that is, we actually hope that this becomes a model that others can follow. The same way the Cleveland Clinic did, the same way the Mayo Clinic did. They brought a model into the world that others soon try to replicate, and that was a good thing. So we'd like to see more attempt to do this. The reality is we have not seen that because unfortunately the old system has a lot of incentives in place to function exactly the way that it is designed. The health system is going to maximize the number of patients that correspond to the highest paying procedures and tests, et cetera. The managed care company is going to try to process the highest number of claims, work the most efficient utilization management and prior authorization, but left out in the middle of all of that is the patient. And so, we really wanted to build that model with the patient at the center, and when I started this company now over a decade ago, that was just a dream that we could do that. Now serving over 10 million members, this feels like it's possible and it feels like a model others could follow.Eric Topol (21:50):Yeah, well that was what struck me is here you're reaching 10 million people. I'd never heard of it. I was like, wow. I thought I try to keep up with things. But now the other thing I wanted to get into you with is AI. Obviously, that has a lot of promise in many different ways. As you know, there are some 12 million diagnostic serious errors a year in the US. I mean you were one, I've been part of them. Most people have been roughed up one way or another. Then there's 800,000 Americans who have disability or die from these errors a year, according to Johns Hopkins relatively recent study. So one of the ways that AI could help is accuracy. But of course, there's many other ways it can help make the lives of both patients helping to integrate their data and physicians to go through a patient's records and set points of their labs and all sorts of other things. Where do you see AI fitting into the model that you've built?Owen Tripp (22:58):Well, I'll give you two that I'm really excited about, that I don't think I hear other people talking about. And again, I'm going to start with that patient, with that member and what he or she wants and needs. One and Eric, bear with me, this is going to sound very banal, but one is just making sense of these very complicated plan documents and explanations of benefits. I'm aware of how well-trained you are and how much you've written. I believe you are the most published in your field. I believe that is a fact. And yet if I showed you a plan description document and an explanation of benefit and I asked you, Eric, could you tell me how much it's going to cost to have an MRI at this facility? I don't think you would've any way of figuring that out. And that is something that people confront every single day in this country. And a lot of people are not like you and me, in that we could probably tolerate a big cost range for that MRI. For some people that might actually be the difference between whether they eat or not, or get their kids prescription or not.Owen Tripp (24:05):And so, we want to make the questions about what your benefits cover and how you understand what's available to you in your plan. We want to make that really easy and we want to make it so that you don't have to have a PhD in insurance language to be able to ask the properly formatted question. As you know, the foundation models are terrific at that problem. So that's one.Eric Topol (24:27):And that's a good one, that's very practical and very much needed. Yeah.Owen Tripp (24:32):The second one I'm really excited about, and I think this will also be near and dear to your heart, is AI has this ability to be sort of nonjudgmental in the best possible way. And so, if we have a patient on a plan to manage hypertension or to manage weight or to manage other elements of a healthy lifestyle. And here we're not talking about deep science, we're just talking about what we've known to work for a long period of time. AI as a coach to help follow through on those goals and passively take data on how you're progressing, but have behind it the world's greatest medical team to be able to jump in when things become more acute or more complex. That's an awesome tool that I think every person needs to be carrying around, so that if my care plan or if my goal is about sleeping better, if my goal is about getting pregnant, if my goal is about reducing my blood pressure, that I can do that in a way that I can have a conversation where I don't feel as a patient that I'm screwing up or letting somebody down, and I can be honest with that AI.Owen Tripp (25:39):So I'm really excited about the potential for the AI as an adjunct coach and care team manager to continue to proceed along with that member with medical support behind that when necessary.Eric Topol (25:55):Yeah, I mean there's a couple of things I'd say about that. Firstly, the fact that you're thinking it from the patient perspective where most working in AI is thinking it from the clinician perspective, so that's really important. The next is that we get notifications, and you need to not sit every hour or something like that from a ring or from a smartwatch or whatever. That isn't particularly intelligent, although it may be needed. The point is we don't get notifications like, what was your blood pressure? Or can you send a PDF of your heart rhythm or this sort of thing. Now the problem too is that people are generating lots of data just by wearing a smartwatch or a fitness band. You've got your activity, your sleep, your heart rate, and all sorts of things that are derivatives of that. No less, you could have other sensors like a glucose monitoring and on and on. No less your electronic health record, and there's no integration of any of this.Eric Topol (27:00):So this idea that we could have a really intelligent AI virtual coach for the patient, which as you said could have connects with a physician as needed, bringing in the data or bringing in some type of issue that the doctor needs to attend to, but it doesn't seem like anything is getting done. We have the AI capabilities, but nothing's getting done. It's frustrating because I wrote about this in 2019 in the Deep Medicine book, and it's just like some of the most sophisticated companies you would think Apple, for the ring Oura and so many others. They have the data, but they don't integrate anything, and they don't really set up notifications for patients. How are we going to get out of this rut?Owen Tripp (27:51):We are producing oil tankers of data around personal experience and not actually turning that into positive energy for what patients can do. But I do want to be optimistic on this point because I actually think, and I shared this with you when we last saw each other. Your thinking was ahead of the time, but foundational for people like me to say, we need to go actually make that real. And let me explain to you what I mean by making it real. We need to bring together the insight that you have an elevated heart rate or that your step count is down, or that your sleep schedule is off. We need to bring that together with the possibility of connecting with a medical professional, which these devices do not have the ability to do that today, and nor do those companies really want to get in that business. And also make that context of what you can afford as a patient.Owen Tripp (28:51):So we have data that's suggestive of an underlying issue. We have a medical team that's prepared to actually help you on that issue. And then we have financial security to know that whatever is identified actually will be paid for. Now, that's not a hard triangle conceptually, but no one of those companies is actually interested in all the points of the triangle, and you have to be because otherwise it's not going to work for the patient. If your business is in selling devices. Really all I'm thinking about is how do I sell devices and subscriptions. If my business is exclusively in providing care, that's really all I'm thinking about. If my business is in managing risk and writing insurance policies, that's really all I'm thinking about. You have to do all those three things in concert.Eric Topol (29:34):Yeah, I mean in many ways it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is we're in this phenomenal era of information to the fifth power. But here we are, we have a lot of data from multiple sources, and it doesn't get integrated. So for example, a person has a problem and they don't know what is the root cause of it. Let's say it's poor sleep, or it could be that they're having stress, which would be manifest through their heart rate or heart rate variability or all sorts of other metrics. And there's no intelligence provided for them to interpret their data because it's all siloed and we're just not really doing that for patients. I hope that'll happen. Hopefully, Included Health could be a lead in that. Maybe you can show the way. Anyway, this has been a fun conversation, Owen. It's rare that I've talked in Ground Truths with any person running a company, but I thought yours.Eric Topol (30:36):Firstly, I didn't know anything about it and it’s big. And secondly, that it's a kind of a unique model that really I'm hoping that others will get involved in and that someday we'll all be included. Maybe not with Included Health, but with better healthcare in this country, which is certainly not the norm, not the routine. And also, as you aptly pointed out at terrible costs with all sorts of waste, unnecessary tests and that sort of thing. So thanks for what you're doing and I'll be following your future efforts and hopefully we can keep making some strides.Owen Tripp (31:15):We will. And I wanted to say thanks for the conversation too and for your thinking on these topics. And look, I want to leave you just with a quick dose of optimism, and you and I both know this. The American system at its best is an extraordinary system, unrivaled in the world, in my opinion. But we do have to have more people included. All the services need to be included in one place. When we get there, we're going to really see what's possible here.Eric Topol (31:40):I do want to agree with you that if you can get to the right doctor and if you can afford it, that is ideally covered by your insurance. It is a phenomenal system, but getting there, that's the hard part. And every day people are confronted. I'm sure, thousands and thousands with serious condition either to get the diagnosis or the treatment, and they have a really rough time. So anyway, so thank you and I really appreciate your taking the time to meet with me today.****************************************************************Thanks for listening, watching, reading and subscribing to Ground Truths.An update on Super Agers:It is ranked #5 on the New York Times bestseller list (on the list for 4th time)https://www.nytimes.com/books/best-sellers/advice-how-to-and-miscellaneous/New podcastsPBS Walter Isaacson, Amanpour&Co Factually, With Adam ConoverPeter Lee, Microsoft Researchhttps://x.com/MSFTResearch/status/1943460270824714414If you found this interesting PLEASE share it!That makes the work involved in putting these together especially worthwhile.Thanks to Scripps Research, and my producer, Jessica Nguyen, and Sinjun Balabanoff for video/audio support.All content on Ground Truths—its newsletters, analyses, and podcasts, are free, open-access.Paid subscriptions are voluntary and all proceeds from them go to support Scripps Research. 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