Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main focus of this episode about Guilt?
Hi, welcome back to The Debrief. It's Bally here and I wanted to introduce you to the full team with me on the line today. We've got, as always, Ryan, our host.
Hello.
And our site lead, Jacob Sathel.
How's it going?
Now, in this episode, we'll be referencing and discussing digital files and some maps on screens. If you're listening only, we'll do our very best to describe this for you. Otherwise, you can watch this episode on our YouTube channel. Just search for Gilt in the search bar.
Now, in the latest episode of Gilt, episode 26, Ryan followed up with Frank Jennings and his explosive lead about a man witnessing a girl screaming in the back of a Ford Zephyr on Urbaka Road. But when Ryan had boots on the ground, some of the pieces just didn't fit. And as Frank so perfectly put it, where we're at now, it's all a bit screwy.
So Ryan, to kick us off, when you knocked on the door at Urbarka Road and the homeowner told you he'd been living there since April 1998, what sort of went through your mind?
Oh, shit. Uh... yeah i mean i um i suppose you're just a little bit flummoxed in that initial
that initial like shock like the deer in the headlights kind of thing um because you know frank had just been so adamant about that side of it and his understanding of what i had understood was that the people had moved out sort of afterwards um not that the place had been sold just sort of beforehand um and that these people apparently had lived there the whole time and during the time of jessica's disappearance
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Chapter 2: What details emerge from Ryan's investigation on Urbaka Road?
And I was like, I bet this will be a real polarizing episode. For some people, they'll feel like, why did I just have to listen to all that? But for other people, they might appreciate that this is kind of what you do. This is what happens, you know? And
For me, I felt if there's any potential doubt about this lead, it's important that if, especially if we're moving into these final episodes, that we make that clear so that if I finish my work, I don't necessarily leave a lead hanging out there that people are thinking is 100% rock solid. If, you know, maybe there's a chance that it's not.
So I felt like it's important to share that to make sure that it's out in the open. Yeah. Yeah. What were your thoughts as listeners, you know, listening to that and sort of based on where we've gone.
Yeah, so this episode kind of played out like a really good, you know, anytime there's a good crime thriller, it's going to do, you know, you're... You're going to have turns where you're like, I'm certain that, oh, okay. It kind of cleared the path a little bit. Okay, well, all right, that points me over here. Oh, but then you get over here and, oh, wait, maybe not. It points you back this way.
And then at the end, you're like, wait, it's none of the things that I thought it was, right? And that's really how this episode played out for me because when you did go up to that house, it was like, dang. I mean, my first thought is, okay, does that ā basically cut the credibility of his entire story, you know, and that's, that's kind of that, you know, the worst case scenario.
So when you get back there and, you know, he's like you said, he's, he was very adamant. And I mean, I could hear it in your voice too. You're like, no, but he said he, it was always his, like it can't be. And he stood his ground, you know? And, and so, but it was so awesome to catch that one detail, like, hang on, that is the only house that has that accessibility.
So this episode really kind of left us at the end, like, well, what do we do now? Because it's not a done lead now, but there's just another twist. So, yeah, as a listener, that's how it hit me. But I will say it was an exciting one to end on because ā The more questions that are generated, the more possibility there is for answers to. And I think this brought up some good questions.
What were your thoughts when you kind of put all those things together and you were kind of left with these pieces? What do you do now? I'm sure the drive back, was it a silent one in your head or were you talking to yourself?
Yeah, and first I'll just start with what you were talking about earlier, and that was, you know, Frank was adamant, and he was, and I think that's what added to the confusion, right? Because if I go back there and Frank's like, oh, well, maybe I was wrong, you know, like, but no, he wasn't. He's adamant. He's so adamant about that. He's so adamant about the story and everything.
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Chapter 3: How does Ryan feel about Frank's credibility regarding the lead?
And I think, too, the value of being able to see this, if you can watch this on YouTube, definitely do, because this section is really interesting. Because listening to this episode, I mean, now that I see it exactly as you described, I mean, you couldn't have described it any differently, but it's not what I saw in my head. It is a very interesting little episode.
uh little layout there um because that access is it's not like it's i thought of like an alley right you just pull up in the alley no that's not what that is you know that's it's a very specific layout um but that clearly goes straight up to that house so that's that kind of puts everything kind of locks into perspective
Yeah. And you can see now, and it was interesting, we have to go back to when Frank was telling his first story earlier in the podcast. And he was talking about that there was a way that you could drive through between the houses from the street behind and you could come out on Urbaka Road. And in that image there,
I believe that's where he's talking about is through those trees and that bush there on the left. There's sort of, yeah, through here and you can come right out on the road. So it's a way that you could access that way, that through there. And I wasn't sure if he was sort of talking about that perhaps this car had come out of there or was going down there or whatever.
could have come from there I'm not sure if that's this place he was talking about he told me that he referenced that you know hoons and stuff would kind of go through there and the cars and stuff sometimes or whatever but yeah so in terms of where the leads now and you know I find it hard because in the episode you know like I don't I'm not trying to discredit what Frank's saying at all just pointing out
the issues that we have with it, where it is now. And the biggest one that it's difficult to get past is that it was April, 1998. And that was obviously well before Jessica went missing.
And the way Frank described it as this person, let's just call it Laurie, just for easy, so it's easy to understand for now, but that Laurie was living there maybe for a short term after the house had been previously sold perhaps. which would be sort of hard to reconcile that with being 99. Um,
I was speaking to Frank earlier, actually, today, and he said that something that could be worth doing is checking out. He said that when he was there that day speaking to Laurie, he spoke to the neighbor as well that was living in the house on the left-hand side as you're looking to the road, so the left-hand side of the pin there.
and that they didn't speak about what Laurie had seen, but that they spoke this day. And he just sort of said, look, if you could track them down, perhaps they might know who this guy was. They might be able to corroborate or at least verify that I'm not crazy and that there was this guy here
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Chapter 4: What challenges arise when verifying Frank's statements?
Swing around on the other side. Sorry, folks, you're going to have to, we're going to be talking about the video on this one a little bit because of what we are. So we'll try not to lose you here. Okay, here we go. So we can see that green door there. So, and I'll add it's worth, you know, when you jump on the street view, we're going to see this right now.
You will be shocked to see what this property looked like 10 years ago. It looked like a completely different place. It was so tidy. uh you can already see there there's a change button wow so that was 2008. so this is 2008 now we can go yeah can you go to the left one block sometimes you might get a different angle yeah okay
It's a pretty barren section. I've just got a few little shrubs starting to form a fence at the front, I'd say, if I'm describing it for our listeners. So that's in 2008.
Can you zoom in on that? I mean, I guess we're just going to lose resolution even more. But OK, I mean, all we can really make out there, right, it's a green shed door. And when we say a shed door, we're talking sort of one of those roller doors, you know, that you roll up. Okay, so let's go to 2010, that next one. Can we get a better shot of it?
Yeah, so it's a single sheet panel roller door. I know you can get bifold or trifold, but it looks like a single sheet panel. Maybe that's something we can check with Frank.
All I'm trying to check right now is this door, does it change between the years? Okay, so let's jump forward more. Does that say December 2021? Let's jump forward to that and just see if we can eyeball a change of any kind here. See how much it's changed.
Those shrubs have grown up. No, same shed door.
Well, I mean, it's the same color at least. It doesn't look like it's changed, does it? that's 2021 try can we go ahead even what's the can we go beyond that uh we can just go to our latest which is today here okay yeah well let's go to today yeah oh that is today there yep uh okay oh so is the most recent one is that this one is 2021
Yes.
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Chapter 5: What insights do the hosts share about the investigation process?
Yeah. Does that change? How far back can we look to see that? It's still there. I think it was green there too. Yeah. It almost looks like this green, right? So when that door's been done, they've painted that as well. Yeah. Okay. But you can sort of see the way Frank describes it. He walks up, he says, there's no front steps.
So he goes around the side, up the left, and as far back as you can go, you can't see the steps because I had a look at this the other day. I mean, the steps are there, sorry. So if he was correct, the steps would have had to have not been there before. But, you know, the rest of the story still fits.
It didn't seem like it in the episode, but how open was he to more conversation, the guy that was living here?
Yeah, I mean, I kind of got a bit of a funny vibe from that guy. Yeah. I would sort of have to say.
I think you probably get a funny vibe from anyone, though, if you rock up and they don't have their underpants on, Ryan. Come on. You caught him off guard. Let's put that out there.
the thing is was i kind of um i did him a favor in the podcast and sort of said that he went and kind of made himself more presentable but he didn't too much you know i think he put on some maybe like but not much uh he was pretty much in the same state uh but i
i remember going up and that's why sometimes too you make your presence known if you're showing up because you don't know what someone's doing right like and you know and say i go up and i just see this like something just flick past through the kitchen and lounge area and yeah he was obviously in his undies i don't know what he's up to probably just watching tv or something but
He seemed okay, but I kind of got the vibe that, I don't know, he wasn't so friendly. I actually had a number provided to me for him. And after I left there, I called him after I'd been to see Frank to see, I just wanted to ask a couple more questions. And I got one of these answering messages now where you...
you leave a question as to why you're calling this person, then they review that and decide whether they're going to answer the call. Um, and he had one of these services set up and I said my piece and it just said the, you know, the user doesn't want to take this call. So he was probably tripping out at that point thinking, what is going on?
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Chapter 6: How do the hosts interpret the significance of the open gate in Anne's case?
Because, you know, I mean,
was obviously someone who specialized in scrap and all this kind of stuff i'm sure he knows all the little differences but it would be interesting to know how he knows it's a different door um yeah i mean i could almost just give him a call right now and and just see if i can get him on the fight well we'll chew up too much time that way and and frank he does he does like to talk but i'll ask him i'll ask him
how he knows it's a different door because you know if that was true and we could see that door was different then I mean that would be you'd be absolutely rock solid then that's definitely the house there's no questions there but it's hard to tell from looking at these images yeah that's that's for sure and I think it's probably worth pointing out as well right like that part of my concern with this as it's kind of unfolding is that
know frank there's also the he's also this isn't the only part to his story right there's also the smell in petri creek and you know as i was doing this and you start to wonder about okay like if this doesn't work out to be right then can i trust like that this other stuff is right as well you know and you can kind of get that bleeding of credibility off into like other elements of it and
you know, these are just concerns that I had at the time sort of thing, but then as it sort of flowed on and I feel more confident now that it is the house and I believe Frank, I do believe him, you know, so I still feel confident in the, in the, the other lead, but you know, you can see how these things can start to affect different things.
And I tell you, there's nothing that can be more that a person can do. I was just interviewing someone the other day for a different season and they had a potentially very important lead, and it still could be, but they tell me this, but then they'll add on to their story
with a whole bunch of other things that they think or that they've tried to make fit in to the case if that makes sense and outlandish things that you can pretty much immediately you just you just know it doesn't make any sense right and when people do that then you start to question the credibility of what they've just told you that first thing that you
you felt really strongly about and then suddenly you think, well, hang on, okay. It's always a bit of an issue, I find, when you have people that have an important piece of information, but then they
then then you realize that they they believe they can link themselves to this case and all these other ways as well and suddenly it starts to almost seem sort of too good to be true a little bit um you know not that it necessarily is but that's how it certainly can feel anyway as you can probably imagine i have to say this this trip
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Chapter 7: What theories are discussed regarding the connections between the cases?
And that's the thing. And I think that's why these podcasts like this and investigative podcasts are so popular and useful because you're drawing on all the different listeners from all walks of life that are providing feedback. And I think that really helps when you're in an investigation like this.
And on that note... Speaking of listener feedback, Ryan, let's put a question out there from Greg. Hi, I love the podcast. It does seem Gus is involved to a major degree from the latest episode. So that would have been last week's episode. What I can't understand is that if Gus was responsible for Anne's disappearance, then why would Sam stay silent in prison about where Jessica's body is?
Is it because Sam could be responsible for Jessica and Sabrina and Gus for Anne? So by Sabrina, that is Sabrina and Selina Bridge, sorry, not Sabrina and Glasser.
Now, Sabrina, yeah, Sabrina and Glassop, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, first off, you know, I would just say that, you know, even though it may look like he's 100% involved, we still don't know that, you know. Circumstantially, it's very interesting, right? But we don't know for sure. But I think in answer to your question, my opinion, I sort of thought there's no reason why
all these cases even need to be connected. No one really knows whether they even are, right? Like, I mean, coincidences could happen. Seems, you know...
a hell of a coincidence but you know like could it be possible that yeah gus potentially was responsible for anne's disappearance and the others are separate perhaps derek's responsible for the other two i mean i'm not sure um why would stan stay silent in prison about where jessica's body is that's a very good question um if we're assuming that he is responsible for her murder which in my opinion seems to be the case yeah why wouldn't he um
hard to know and that's you know you've got the answer that question you're going to have uh there'll be a lot of happy people because that's the question that everyone always always has right um what are your thoughts on that you know can we just verify again i know you've done it time and time again but um outside of law enforcement influence um
What, if I'm not mistaken, the only thing that has connected Derek Sam to any of the other two cases is the fact that he knew and through working on the horses. Am I right in that?
Anne's case, he knew Anne from helping her a couple of times with horses. She had some involvement in endurance rides and that kind of thing. So they certainly had met proximity, you know, lived close by. And he made this comment about, you know, the teacher, he went on a date with a teacher or he's going on a date with a teacher. So, you know, that's what it is.
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Chapter 8: What are the final thoughts on the current state of the investigations?
one of the research teams sort of said, going back and looking at old newspaper clippings and so on, we're able to sort of make a timeline that sort of that information didn't come out to much further down the track. This wasn't something that was contemporaneous with when she went missing, you know?
So it just, I think in terms of that little piece, you know, I think it just adds some little bit of doubt there in terms of,
of what that is and so when you when you have that the doubt around that well then you don't really have much at all in connecting sort of derek to that other than the fact that you know the proximity you can't ignore it and i think even yourself jacob when we were looking at the map that time you know you were like wow you can't deny that there's pub in there and you know so um yeah i think i've i don't know if i've answered that question or just rambled but
And our next one comes from Jen. So apologies if this isn't possible. The facts of the case can get a little bit disjointed when we listen week to week. I can't get past the red paint on the post with Anne Glassett. Could it be possible that Gus hit Anne with his red car, maybe as she was walking with her dog or something? And that's from Jen.
Yeah. Um, red paint on the post yeah it's uh it's a it's a real mystery um even speaking to ian right like it's um You kind of, I'm not even exactly sure what, if he knew what he was really, what it meant sort of thing, but he just felt it meant something. I think he says like, it's gotta be involved somehow. Like there's something not right about that, but he doesn't even know.
And how does it even make sense? I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
I sort of had a little thought. Maybe Anne's car was near that post at some point, but she's got a tiny little car. I think it was a Toyota kind of mini truck that Ian was referencing. It would be at different heights. I didn't go too far down that track. It could be so many different things.
yeah I thought I don't know if maybe what he was sort of saying is you know was was uh what's his name was Gus in a rush or a panic doing something or something and in that moment he's come racing in and he's knocked this post over and I'm not sure I don't I don't really know it's just one of those sort of little little points I don't know what did you make of that Jacob
it's just another one of those details that, you know, the, the, the line that we cross from being just completely incapable of corroborating. I feel like we, we hit that so many times with these cases this season, but that one, like, gosh, it's, it's great to talk about and speculate about, but I just don't know how we could ever really get to the bottom of that, you know? And I think, yeah,
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