Stan, Clarence, Barry, and the Health Chatter team chat with Sam Simmons about men’s stories and experiences related to health and healthcare.Join the conversation at healthchatterpodcast.comBrought to you in support of Hue-MAN, who is Creating Healthy Communities through Innovative Partnerships.More about their work can be found at https://www.huemanpartnershipalliance.org/
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hello, everybody. Welcome to Health Chatter. Today's show is on men's story, men's story about health. It should be an interesting show. We've got a great guest and we'll introduce him to you in a second. We've got a great crew that's behind the scenes that helps us make all these shows great and great for you, the listening audience.
Maddie Levine-Wolf, Aaron Collins, Deandra Howard do our research. and help with our recording of the shows matthew campbell is our production person who gets all the shows out to you the listening audience in perfect form sheridan nygaard also does background research for us and in our marketing so they're a great crew Thank you to all of you.
My colleagues in doing the shows are Clarence Jones and Dr. Barry Baines, both wonderful colleagues. This has been a real fun exercise doing health chatter for all these episodes that we've done. And so thank you to you as well. Human Partnership is our sponsor for today. for Health Chatter. You can check them out at humanpartnershipalliance.org.
And you can check us out at healthchatterpodcast.com for all the different shows, whether you want to listen to them or you can read the transcripts and also the background research for our shows as well. So thank you to all of you. And there's all the information for you. Clarence. I'll let you introduce our illustrious guest for today.
Chapter 2: How does trauma affect men's health?
I think that was a wonderful leading illustrious guest. Uh, this is going to be a kind of a, uh, organic conversation. Uh, we've had Sam on our show before talking about a variety of different things. And, uh, Sam has, uh, you know, I've known Sam for a while. And, uh, what is interesting about Sam, Sam has been, uh, someone that I have, uh, truly, uh,
truly enjoyed as it relates to public health, especially around the issue of trauma. But Sam, this is June, and this show might air in July. I don't know. But for the month of June, we talk about men's health. And Sam has been doing a... a conference for a long period of time, for over 17 years. In fact, I was at his first conference. So we've been doing that for a long time.
But I wanted Sam to come on so that he could talk more about that conference. He can talk about his book. But I think this is going to be a rather organic conversation about Black men and about parenting. And so there's some commonalities in birthing and all those kind of things. But anyway, I'm saying all of that to just say, hold on to your seat because we're getting ready to take a ride.
So I just want to say welcome, Sam, to Health Chatter.
Well, thank you for having me and allowing me to be on your show. Let's see if we can live up to all that which you just said. How about that?
Okay, okay. So like I said, folks, hang on to your seatbelt because Sam's going to take us for a ride. So let's start off, Sam. Tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we'll get a little bit in talking about some of the work that you've done. But tell me about who you are.
Oh, that's, you know, that's, yeah, okay. I am a behavioral consultant, a licensed chemical dependency counselor. I often tell people I'm semi-retired, but for some reason, lately, I seem to be just as busy as when I called myself working. And so I've been doing work around chemical health and behavioral health probably over 35 years. And my focus...
over the last probably 17, 18 years has been on trauma and focusing more so, at least initially, on black male trauma and how that affects the community as a whole and what kind of, why is it important to really acknowledge and address that trauma? and really look at how it shows up.
Yeah. So, Sam, one of the things that has always intrigued me was how you entered into this work, but also why do you think the work is so important?
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Chapter 3: What role does chemical dependency play in health?
Really probably was ignited when I went through the chronic pain clinic. I believe it was in the 80s. Initially, I used to be a truck driver for the University of Minnesota and was injured, went through the pain clinic, and actually later on became a consultant to the pain clinic. One of the things I observed and learned in terms of working with clients in the pain clinic is that
uh, you know, everybody suffers, you know, people suffer pain, uh, and have difficulty with pain. Not everybody, uh, is, uh, considered having chronic pain. And, and then when it came to folks that were in our program, one of the things that was consistent of a, probably about 69, 70% of the folks had some type of, uh, family trauma. Now, you know, people might say, well, you know, uh,
Bad things happen in every family, but there was specific types of trauma that showed up most often. Chemical dependency in the family, domestic violence in the family was two of the big ones, and mental health and trauma in the family, right? And how people, because a lot of the folks that we dealt with in the program were high achievers.
And so what I figured out was that there was three sociably acceptable ways for people to kind of cover their trauma. And that was with perfectionism, caretaking, and workaholism. You know, the idea of staying busy, right? You know, caretaking, for example, a lot of the folks
who a portion of the folks who came to the program were in the care professions, like counselors, doctors, therapists, and those kind of things. And I always say, I'd rather get in your business because I can't handle mine. And if you talk to a lot of folks who work in therapy, sometimes you'll hear this story
in the background about them working through their own stuff and went to school, got their education, you know, that kind of thing. And so that would be what I observed in the mainstream because that was across the board, you know. But again, I want to emphasize the sociably acceptable ways of covering up your trauma is those kind of things.
You know, it's like think about working with a hardcore perfectionist who's never happy about their stuff. And they wonder why they might not have a lot of friends when they're injured because they don't, you know, how do you be a consistent friend with somebody who don't realize they remind you of what's wrong with you? You know, and just being around them, right?
And so like, they would be injured, their family, And then they would say, well, my family don't help me. Well, you never allowed your family to help you, right? And so how did they all of a sudden start helping you now? And back in the pain clinic, what I loved was talking to the kids. Because the kids would tell me everything. Right. They, you know, like, yeah, daddy is a pain in the butt.
I used to, you know, cause he worked all the time, you know, and now all of a sudden he's home all the time and wanted to give us new rules and, and want to move everything around the house and things to then act like we supposed to be happy about that. And, and, and the good thing is it made them have to hear what the family had to say.
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Chapter 4: How can understanding trauma improve community health?
That would have been a mixed audience and probably lean more non-African-American in the work. So luckily, I started with that background and worked into the community.
So I've got a question for you, Sam. So you've been in the field a long time. Yes. And you're talking about trauma and you're talking about chemical dependency, etc., etc., So give me your insight on how those manifestations affect health. In other words, you see these people and you've dealt with these people.
Did you have any perception on health overall and how their health was affected by trauma or by chemical dependency or what have you?
Well, the interesting thing is, again, we're kind of talking about a couple of different groups. It's like the group that I was dealing with in the hospital where most, when we finally, towards the end of the program, majority of our clients were middle-class individuals, okay, who would actually say they didn't have a problem, right? And so...
And so you're talking about chronic pain that we're also talking about one of the interesting areas around the opioid emissions, right? We've seen that coming way before they even tried to have a conversation about it, you know, because it was easier to chase a pill than to do the physical therapy. and to reorganize your life so you give yourself your body time to relax.
You know, a lot of them, when you talk about the health issues, a lot of them, you know, even though with the folks in the pain clinic, several of them would probably be, probably had issues with alcohol before they had issues with pills, right? But the biggest thing is, is they didn't know how to slow down. This was easier.
The doctor tells me to go home and rest for three, four weeks, and I'm a perfectionist, and I'm anal, and it's all or nothing. I'm not going to go home and relax for three, four weeks. If there's a pill out there that I can take that will let me get through the day and then suffer that night, then I have to have another pill. We're talking about folks who
probably had their kind of addictive behavior, but they were covering it up with activity. They were covering it up. So addiction, unfortunately, we want to narrow them down. Again, when you talk about a hardcore caretaker, that's an addiction on other people's misery, right? And to cover up something that I don't want to deal with. So a lot of those folks, when you've dealt with them one-on-one,
You wouldn't classify them as being somebody who had a chemical problem, because that's what we do in our society. We have defined a certain look, and a portion of those folks would have met that criteria, but they probably wouldn't have never been confronted, really, about their use. or that kind of thing.
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Chapter 5: What insights does Sam share about Black men's experiences?
And so now what do you do with that when you've got four kids you're trying to raise, you're trying to be a responsible black man, and you get home and you're so angry because you want to hurt this little boy. Matter of fact, a couple of the staff did hurt the little boy out of the dock later on. But again, he come home, first thing he reaches for is a Budweiser so he can calm down.
If he didn't get his Budweiser, it was hell to pay. So medicating that anger, and we didn't even talk about the historical anger, medicating the anger with alcohol, medicating the anger with food, medicating yourself with sex. And if you walk backwards, you'll start seeing certain things that have shown up in the community and you can tie them back to initially
not addressing trauma, trying to medicate that.
And again- So Sam, let me ask you this question. So most of the work that you did or you've been involved with is with Black men, correct?
No. Well, lately, yeah. When I worked in the hospital, that was primarily why I did it.
Oh, really? Okay. All right. Yeah. So Barry, you know, I know you've got some thoughts on this. So chime in on this one.
Yeah, well, I think it's interesting. Before we went on the air, Clarence and I were having a little conversation about how interwoven so many of the topics are that we talk about here. And I think related to trauma, it's a similar kind of thing. What kind of struck me, Sam, especially with the caregivers, that people...
you know, kind of diverted or, you know, in a way, medicated their trauma by becoming caregivers, right? And, you know, there's this concept that I read about that relates to personal suffering, but it's the idea of the wounded healer.
And that's sort of what was circling around in my brain, this idea that people deal with these life traumas and it's sort of like a distraction in a way, but it's a way for them to get through the day by, again, providing care to others, but at the cost that they're not taking care of themselves, really.
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Chapter 6: How does the conference address men's health issues?
Okay. The word disparity has always been interesting because yes, there are disparities and they've been there, but that's just the way it's been. But the other piece is the other side. I'd rather deal with the other side. The fact that even if I have healthcare, I don't use it. You know, So there's a lot more folks who have healthcare, certainly men, who don't ever use it. Okay?
And so when you talk about things that add to disparities, when you have over 300 years of being conditioned to believe that you're less than, why would I use it? If you have over 300 years of, okay, how do I figure out how to fit my manhood in this society that says I'm less than a man depending on who else is in the room, right?
So when you talk about the trauma, not dealing with the trauma actually contributes to those disparities because the trauma will eat you from the inside out when you don't even realize it. And then you are a, I can, you know, I often say I can talk about being a black man a lot easier than talking about being some other man.
And one of the things about being black in America, still trying to figure out historically, how do I fit? And how do I get defined as being significant other than being seen as a problem? When you talk about how do we add to the disparity or make the trauma worse is when, like, for example, is if I'm deemed...
uh the problem and you treat me like a problem right what am i what am i supposed to what am i supposed to do right and then if i did need help if you don't treat me like a problem i'm not coming to you for help so we have these layers of that add to disparities and then when then the other piece is is like if i only use punitive measures for certain groups of people Okay, we got the data.
If I only use punitive responses to black men and the average white person don't have to deal with me. Matter of fact, they can get up and move if they got a little money, right? So the only thing they know is what they see on TV. And the only time you show me on TV is straddled over a police car where you got the other person who answers the policeman from their car.
and don't have to get straddled, and I'm a nice white individual driving by, and I see this often enough, the conclusion is, there must be something extra wrong with them. So that adds to the disparity in terms of, you know, now I don't feel no empathy for that person because that's them. Okay?
You know, it's almost like circular thinking, and the circular thinking doesn't get you anywhere.
Right. No, but again, it don't get you nowhere. But the other thing is, is how do you connect the dots? And see, we want to connect the dots from now going forward. A good part of our population don't want to connect the dots going backwards and then moving forward. And so my focus around male trauma and Pacific Black male trauma is to say when you have
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Chapter 7: What are the implications of trauma on parenting?
Ooh, you're long-suffering. You're such an advocate. We elevate the trauma to the point where You know, I'm out there giving and people give me credit. And then soon as I get healthy enough to start caring for myself, folks turn on me. And that's, you know, because again, we're so conditioned to care for others and ourselves, we get credit for that. Yeah.
So Clarence, I know my colleague well enough, you're chomping at the bit.
Well, I'm charming the bit because I told you this, we had to buckle up our seatbelts, right? Because, you know, I know Sam and have known Sam for a long time. Sam, you've known Sam for a long time, too. Yeah. You know what we're going to do. But I really wanted to talk to Sam about his conference.
You know, because I mean, I know and I'm sure you'll find some way to tie trauma into parenting because some of us have been traumatized by parenting. But Sam is doing a conference coming up fairly shortly. And I wanted to make sure that we talk a little bit about that. And so, Sam, tell us a little bit overview of your conference, but also talk about specifically this one that's coming up.
And his book. He's got a book, too. Yeah, he's got a book.
Hello, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So, it's so funny. Well, the conference is, this is our 17th year. We call it Community Empowerment through Black Media. That's the name of the conference, long name. But that, we started the conference in 2009. And the reason we started the conference is because
When there's things that happen in the Black community, you know, we talk about disparities, you know, we'll talk about maybe housing, drug use or whatever, whatever is going on in the community. If we're not talking about how systems contribute to those issues, when we break it down, the next thing comes up is what Black men ain't doing.
Once you, when you set the system stuff aside, the next thing is what black men ain't doing. And that's all out of that, you know, how we look at that whole masculinity idea, but what are black men not doing?
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Chapter 8: What success stories highlight resilience in the community?
Folks scared to hit, knock on the door. And then all of a sudden it gets quiet. Right. And then they get really worried. It's like, okay. And then, you know, and then we realized they were outside the door. We opened the door and said, we're good. And what we came to the conclusion was we were both right. Okay, so how do you hold somebody accountable that you don't give grace to?
How do you hold somebody accountable you don't give grace to? How do you think about this? Across the board, we don't recognize male trauma across the board. It don't matter what your group is. Think about that. How do you ignore a whole gender's trauma and then be surprised by the way they treat themselves and treat the people around them. Okay?
Because we don't leave no out for men to deal with their trauma, so they share it with everybody else. And the more they suffer, the more the family and the community suffer tenfold.
It's kind of like, you know, misery loves company in a boat, but you're still not taking care of the problem.
Right, right. Well, the thing is, you've got to take care of the problem. It's better if you're not recognizing it, even though the water is all around you the whole time. And the whole thing is, you don't look at the hole in the boat. You say, well, look at the ocean. You know, look at that water. We're surrounded by water. Well, yeah, but what about the water in the boat? Exactly.
And that's how we've been conditioned to look at it from this kind of victim position. Like, we have... We have no hope or no part in this. We have no skills. But what I realized, my work in dealing with Black men and their trauma came really even more clear when I started doing domestic violence work, because when we do domestic violence work, at least initially, it was always to beat up a man.
Beat him, beat him down, you know, relive what he did to his partner and that kind of stuff, and then build him back up. How do you beat down a population that's already beaten and then think that's going to work? You know, it's like I deal with young men right now who know how to be punished because they're punished by the community in their own way. They're punished by the system.
They know probably a lot less in some cases more about punishment than love. So threatening to punish me is not going to change my behavior. And we're seeing it every day on the news since COVID, right? You know, and so that's the thing that fed the idea of the conference. The first conference, what we did is we set up a one-day conference. We didn't know what we were doing.
We set up a one-day conference. And the conference was all about the question, if we focused on male trauma, would the community improve? And we did a full day of that. We looked at education. We looked at parenting. We looked at the church. And we had these workshops. We asked the question. And it made people think differently, right? You know, it made them think about
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