Huberman Lab
How to Improve at Learning Using Neuroscience & AI | Dr. Terry Sejnowski
Mon, 18 Nov 2024
In this episode, my guest is Dr. Terry Sejnowski, Ph.D., professor of computational neurobiology at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies. He is world-renowned for exploring how our brain processes and stores information and, with that understanding, for developing tools that enable us to markedly improve our ability to learn all types of information and skills. We discuss how to learn most effectively in order to truly master a subject or skill. Dr. Sejnowski explains how to use AI tools to forage for new information, generate ideas, predict the future, and assist in analyzing health data and making health-related decisions. We also explore non-AI strategies to enhance learning and creativity, including how specific types of exercise can improve mitochondrial function and cognitive performance. Listeners will gain insights into how computational methods and AI are transforming our understanding of brain function, learning, and memory, as well as the emerging roles of these tools in addressing personal health and treating brain diseases such as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s. Access the full show notes for this episode at hubermanlab.com. Pre-order Andrew's new book, Protocols: protocolsbook.com Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman Helix Sleep: https://helixsleep.com/huberman David Protein: https://davidprotein.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Joovv: https://joovv.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 Dr. Terry Sejnowski 00:02:32 Sponsors: BetterHelp & Helix Sleep 00:05:19 Brain Structure & Function, Algorithmic Level 00:11:49 Basal Ganglia; Learning & Value Function 00:15:23 Value Function, Reward & Punishment 00:19:14 Cognitive vs. Procedural Learning, Active Learning, AI 00:25:56 Learning & Brain Storage 00:30:08 Traveling Waves, Sleep Spindles, Memory 00:32:08 Sponsors: AG1 & David 00:34:57 Tool: Increase Sleep Spindles; Memory, Ambien; Prescription Drugs 00:42:02 Psilocybin, Brain Connectivity 00:45:58 Tool: ‘Learning How to Learn’ Course 00:49:36 Learning, Generational Differences, Technology, Social Media 00:58:37 Sponsors: LMNT & Joovv 01:01:06 Draining Experiences, AI & Social Media 01:06:52 Vigor & Aging, Continued Learning, Tool: Exercise & Mitochondrial Function 01:12:17 Tool: Cognitive Velocity; Quick Stressors, Mitochondria 01:16:58 AI, Imagined Futures, Possibilities 01:27:14 AI & Mapping Potential Options, Schizophrenia 01:30:56 Schizophrenia, Ketamine, Depression 01:36:15 AI, “Idea Pump,” Analyzing Research 01:42:11 AI, Medicine & Diagnostic Tool; Predicting Outcomes 01:50:04 Parkinson’s Disease; Cognitive Velocity & Variables; Amphetamines 01:59:49 Free Will; Large Language Model (LLM), Personalities & Learning 02:12:40 Tool: Idea Generation, Mind Wandering, Learning 02:18:18 Dreams, Unconscious, Types of Dreams 02:22:56 Future Projects, Brain & Self-Attention 02:31:39 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What is the main topic of this episode?
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Terry Signowski. Dr. Terry Signowski is a professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, where he directs the Computational Neurobiology Laboratory.
And as his title suggests, he is a computational neuroscientist. That is, he uses math as well as artificial intelligence and computing methods to understand this overarching, ultra-important question of how the brain works.
Now, I realize that when people hear terms like computational neuroscience, algorithms, large language models and A.I., that it can be a bit overwhelming and even intimidating. But I assure you that the purpose of Dr. Sejnowski's work and indeed today's discussion is all about using those methods to clarify how the brain works and indeed to simplify the answer to that question.
So, for instance, today you will learn that regardless of who you are, regardless of your experience, that all your motivation in all domains of life is governed by a simple algorithm or equation. Dr. Signowski explains how a single rule, a single learning rule drives all of our motivation related behaviors. And it, of course, relates to the neuromodulator dopamine.
And if you're familiar with dopamine as a term, today you will really understand how dopamine works. to drive your levels of motivation or in some cases, lack of motivation and how to overcome that lack of motivation. Today, we also discuss how best to learn.
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Chapter 2: How does the brain process learning?
Dr. Sadnowski shares not just information about how the brain works, but also practical tools that he and colleagues have developed, including a zero cost online portal that teaches you how to learn better based on your particular learning style. the way that you in particular forge for information and implement that information.
Dr. Signowski also explains how he himself uses physical exercise of a particular type in order to enhance his cognition, that is his brain's ability to learn information and to come up with new ideas. Today, we also discuss both the healthy brain and the diseased brain.
in conditions like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, and how particular tools that relate to mitochondrial function can perhaps be used in order to treat various diseases, including Alzheimer's dementia. I'm certain that by the end of today's episode, you will have learned a tremendous amount of new knowledge about how your brain works and practical tools that you can implement in your daily life.
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is BetterHelp.
BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out completely online. I've been doing weekly therapy for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice. It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school, but pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health.
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Chapter 3: What role does dopamine play in motivation?
In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training, which of course I also do every single week. Now, there are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about essentially all issues that you want to.
Second of all, great therapy provides support in the form of emotional support or simply directed guidance what to do or what not to do in given areas of your life. And third, expert therapy can provide you useful insights that you would not have been able to arrive at on your own.
BetterHelp makes it very easy to find an expert therapist who you really resonate with and that can provide you the benefits I just mentioned that come with effective therapy. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com slash Huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com slash Huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep.
Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before on this and other podcasts about the fact that getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, the mattress you sleep on makes a huge difference in terms of the quality of sleep that you get each night.
How soft it is or how firm it is, how breathable it is, all play into your comfort and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. If you go to the Helix website, you can take a brief two-minute quiz, and it asks you questions such as, do you sleep on your back, your side, or your stomach? Do you tend to run hot or cold during the night? Things of that sort.
Maybe you know the answers to those questions, maybe you don't. Either way, Helix will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, that turned out to be the Dusk mattress, D-U-S-K. I started sleeping on a Dusk mattress about three and a half years ago, and it's been far and away the best sleep that I've ever had. If you'd like to try Helix, you can go to helixsleep.com slash Huberman.
Take that two minute sleep quiz and Helix will match you to a mattress that is customized for your unique sleep needs. For the month of November, 2024, Helix is giving up to 25% off on all mattress orders and two free pillows. Again, that's helixsleep.com slash Huberman to get up to 25% off and two free pillows. And now for my discussion with Dr. Terry Sejnowski. Dr. Terry Sejnowski, welcome.
Great to be here. We go way back, and I'm a huge, huge fan of your work because you've worked on a great many different things in the field of neuroscience. You're considered by many a computational neuroscience, so you bring mathematical models to an understanding of the brain and neural networks.
And we're also going to talk about AI today, and we're going to make it accessible for everybody, biologist or no, math background or no. To kick things off, I want to understand something.
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Chapter 4: How can exercise enhance cognitive function?
There's really no way to simulate what it is to take your mask off underwater, put it back on, and then blow the water out of your mask. You just have to do that in a pool. And you actually have to do it when you need to for it to really get drilled in.
It's really essential for things that have to be executed quickly and expertly to get that really down pat so you don't have to think. And This happens in school, right? In other words, you have classroom lessons where you're given explicit instruction, but then you go do homework. That's procedural learning. You do problems, you solve problems.
And I'm a PhD physicist, so I went through all of the classes in theoretical physics. And it was really the problems that really were the core of becoming a good physicist. You can memorize the equations, but that doesn't mean you understand how to use the equations.
I think it's worth highlighting something. A lot of times on this podcast, We talk about what I call protocols. It would be like get some morning sunlight in your eyes to stimulate your suprachiasmatic nucleus by way of your retinal ganglion cells. Audiences of this podcast will recognize those terms. It's basically get sunlight in your eyes in the morning and set your circadian clock.
That's right.
And you can hear that a trillion times. But I do believe that there's some value to both knowing what the protocol is, the underlying mechanisms, there are these things in your eye that encode the sunrise, the qualities of light, et cetera, and then send them to your brain, et cetera, et cetera.
But then once we link knowledge, pure knowledge, to a practice, I do believe that the two things merge someplace in a way that, let's say, reinforces both the knowledge and the practice. So these things are not necessarily separate. They bridge. In other words, doing your theoretical physics problem sets reinforces the examples that you learned in lecture and in your textbooks and vice versa.
So this is a battle that's going on right now in schools. What you've just said is absolutely right. You need both. We have two major learning systems. We have a cognitive learning system, which is cortical. We have a procedural learning system, which is subcortical, basal ganglia. And the two go hand in hand. If you want to become good at anything, the two are going to help each other.
And what's going on right now in schools, in California at least, is that they're trying to get rid of the procedural.
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Chapter 5: What is the value function in learning?
Chapter 6: How do sleep spindles contribute to memory?
And if you get it wrong, it doesn't work. It's just a mess. Now, it turns out that we're discovering algorithms. We've made a lot of progress. with understanding the algorithms that are used in neural circuits. And this speaks to the computational level of how to understand the function of the neural circuit.
But I'm going to give you one example of an algorithm, which is one we worked on back in the 1990s when Peter Dayan and Reed Montague were postdocs in the lab. And it had to do with a part of the brain below the cortex called the basal ganglia, which is responsible for learning sequences of actions in order to achieve some goal.
For example, if you want to play tennis, you have to be able to coordinate many muscles and a whole sequence of actions has to be made if you want to be able to serve accurately. And you have to practice, practice, practice. Well, what's going on there is that the basal ganglia basically is taking over from the cortex and producing actions that get better and better and better and better.
And that's true not just of the muscles, but it's also true of thinking. If you want to become good in any area, if you want to become a good financier, if you want to become a good doctor, or neuroscientists, right? You have to be practicing, practicing, practicing in terms of understanding the details of the profession and what works, what doesn't work, and so forth.
And it turns out that this basal ganglia interacts with the cortex, not just in the back, which is the action part, but also with the prefrontal cortex, which is the thinking part.
Can I ask you a question about this briefly? The basal ganglia, as I understand, are involved in the organization of two major types of behaviors, go, meaning to actually perform a behavior, but the basal ganglia also instruct no go, don't engage in that behavior. And learning an expert golf swing or even a basic golf swing or tennis racket swing involves both of those things, go and no go.
Given what you just said, which is that the basal ganglia are also involved in generating thoughts of particular kinds. I wonder, therefore, if it's also involved in suppression of thoughts of particular kinds. I mean, you don't want your surgeon cutting into a particular region and just thinking about their motor behaviors, what to do and what not to do. They presumably need to think about
what to think about, but also what to not think about. You don't want that surgeon thinking about how their kid was a brat that morning and they're frustrated because the two things interact. So is there go, no go in terms of action and learning? And is there go, no go in terms of thinking?
Well, I mentioned the prefrontal cortex and that part, the loop with the basal ganglia, that is one of the last to mature in early adulthood. And the problem is that for adolescents, it's not the no-go part for planning and actions isn't quite there yet. And so often it doesn't kick in to prevent you from doing things that are not in your best interest. So yes, absolutely right.
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Chapter 7: What are the benefits of AI in learning?
I've never taken it, but I'm aware of what it is. People use it as a sleep aid.
That's right. A lot of people take it in order to sleep. Okay. Well, it turns out that it causes more sleep spindles. Really? Yeah. It doubles the number of sleep spindles. If you take the drug... You take the drug... after you've done the learning, right? You do the learning at night and then you take the drug and you have twice as many spindles.
You wake up in the morning, you can remember twice as much.
from what you learned. And the memories are stable over time? Yes. It's in there.
Yes, yeah, no, it consolidates it. I mean, that's the point.
What's the downside of Ambien?
Okay, here's the downside. Okay, so people who take the drug, say if you're going to Europe and you take it and then you sleep really soundly, but often you... You find yourself in the hotel room and you completely have no clue, you have no memory of how you got there.
I've had that experience without Ambien or any other drugs where I am very badly jet lagged.
Yes.
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Chapter 8: How does aging affect learning and memory?
And, you know, they're looking down at their phone and they're walking along, even people who are skateboarding. Unbelievable. I mean, it's amazing what the human being can do when they get into something. But what happens is the younger generation picks up whatever technology it is and the brain gets really good at it.
And you can pick it up later, but you're not quite as agile, not quite as maybe obsessive.
It fatigues me. I will point this out, that doing anything on my phone feels fatiguing in a way that reading a paper book or even just writing on a laptop or a desktop computer is fundamentally different. I can do that for many hours. If I'm on social media for more than a few minutes, I can literally feel the energy draining out of my body. Interesting. I could do...
sprints or deadlifts for hours and not feel the kind of fatigue that I feel from doing social media.
So, you know, this is fascinating. I'd like to know what's going on in your brain. Why is it... And also, I'd like to know from younger people whether they have the same... I think not. I think my guess is that they don't feel fatigue because they got into this early enough. And this is actually a very, very... I think that it has a lot to do with... the foundation you put into your brain.
In other words, things that you learn when you're really young, are foundational and they make things easier, some things easier.
Yeah, I spent a lot of time in my room as a kid, either playing with Legos or action figures or building fish tanks or reading about fish. I tended to read about things and then do a lot of procedural-based activities. I would read skateboard magazines and skateboard. I was never one to really just watch a sport and not play it. So that, you know, bridging across these things.
So social media to me feels like an energy sink. But of course, I love the opportunity to be able to teach to people and learn from people at such scale. But at an energetic level, I feel like I don't have a foundation for it. It's like I'm trying to like, like jerry-rig my cognition into doing something that it wasn't designed to do.
Well, there you go. And it's because you don't have the foundation. You didn't do it when you were younger. And now you have to sort of use the cognitive powers to do a lot of what was being done now in a younger person procedurally.
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