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Chapter 1: What tools does Andy Stumpf recommend for mental clarity?
Pick the choice as often as possible that is slightly more difficult. To me, it's the small stuff that nobody sees that makes the biggest difference in the world. Everybody knows the harder choice versus the easier choice. Everybody, to include myself, will look externally and say, what do I need to do? I know what I need to do, and so do they.
They need to do the thing, then even if it's microscopic, that they wanna do less more often than they do the thing that they wanna do more. That over time is the juice.
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.
My guest today is Andy Stumpf, a retired Navy SEAL and subsequently a member of the Red Bull high-performance team, where he was a wingsuiter, where they literally get into what some people call squirrel suits and fly. He set two world records wingsuiting, But today's discussion is not really prompted by his career in the military, nor his wingsuiting, although it does impact the discussion.
Today's discussion was prompted by my reading of Andy's recent book called Drown Proof. Now, there are a lot of books out there by former Navy SEALs, but upon reading it, I realized that this was a special book and that Andy's experience and the lessons he shares, and most importantly, the tools he shares are both unique and indeed important for everyone to hear.
For instance, he describes a tool in there that I now use every single week, which has allowed me and many other people, and I'm certain you, to separate out issues of concern versus issues of impact, meaning to allow you to actually be able to impact, perhaps not control,
but certainly have an impact on certain things while ignoring the issues in life that distract you, that pull you into drama and that can numb you out and that essentially waste your life. Today, you'll learn what that exercise is and how to implement it in your life.
You'll also learn a lot of other simple tools about how to take the slightly harder road in certain moments versus the easier road. You'll also learn from Andy about the most difficult things that he encountered in life and how he navigated them and know Those weren't in the military nor wingsuiting. It actually comes from his personal life, which he shares very candidly.
And finally, we have a very serious and in many ways somewhat emotional discussion about suicide and mental health more generally. I do hope that that discussion will benefit all of you. I'm certainly we are certainly, I should say, very open to your input. That discussion, of course, raises more questions than it provides answers. But I think we can all agree that this is an extremely important
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Chapter 2: How can we differentiate between influence and concern?
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Wealthfront brokerage is not a bank. The base APY is as of January 30th, 2026 and subject to change. For more information, please see the episode description. I've got a theory that I'm just going to share. Please. That I've been thinking about a lot lately. having just spent some time with, let's just say one of the major providers of online content. It's not a social media platform.
So I have this theory that unlike being drunk or doing drugs of any kind, opioids or amphetamines or something where people exit the state of intoxication and they realize like, oh my God, like that was a huge waste of my time, my life. I made these mistakes, et cetera. Being on social media is different because
there's this awareness that we're on there and we probably could or should be doing something else often. And I have this theory that it's the perfect addiction because it's what I would call low resolution enough that it doesn't occupy all of your mind. Like when people are really intoxicated, thinking about the fact that they shouldn't be intoxicated.
That's the state they're trying to achieve. This is a state that people come out of and report their data on this. They go, yeah, it didn't feel good being on there for the last 45 minutes or 30 minutes, or I feel like I wasted a lot of time. So they're aware of that even while they're doing it. Very unusual for addictions, right?
Most addictions fall into the category of trying to erase the sense of time. Lose themselves in the activity. Forget the trauma. If you think it's trauma related, just forget everything else and just be in this moment. Gamblers will say this, right? It's that zone they crave so much. This is different. Doesn't feel really good.
You're aware that you're not supposed to be doing it quite like that or that much. So I actually think it's the quote unquote ultimate addiction because it's low resolution enough that your brain circuits can get attached to it and keep doing it while you're monitoring yourself. And yet you can run these two tracks at the same time.
So you're not getting absorbed and coming out of it and going, oh my God, I didn't study for my final exam. Oh my goodness, I didn't pick up the kids from school. It's just low resolution enough that you can still kind of tend to the kids, kind of be in a conversation, sort of be on the Zoom, sort of like, and- Kind of still be driving your car. Your light doesn't totally fall apart. Exactly.
And so in some ways, because it's not so extreme, I think that's actually one of the problems. The other problem is, of course, our brains can, but are not really designed to be split into these, you know, two different activities for terribly long. It's not just an inability to multitask. I actually think that low resolution thing is, you can kind of do it while you're doing other things.
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Chapter 3: What are the impacts of social media on mental health?
I don't know, man. Well, it's like sleep is super important. And I think it's great for everyone, especially young people, to understand just how great they can feel and mentally and physically perform when they're well rested.
I think it's also an important, not just rite of passage, but experience to know just how terrible you can feel after a night of no sleep and still go take a midterm exam or go for the run you were supposed to go for. Not because it's, quote unquote, the best thing for you, but just because how do you explore the outer margins of your capacity unless you know
How feeling really great feels and how, let's just say not lousy, but how like minimally good you can feel and still complete something while you're completely crushed. Like, I mean, after a breakup, after two or three nights of poor sleep, in a very stressful time, not having eaten perfectly, like...
It's good to understand what a workout or what going to class and forcing yourself to stay awake or having a hard conversation with your significant other feels like when it's like the last thing your body wants you to do. I think there's utility there. You know, it's kind of like the ice bath of mental experiences, right? Are you a fan of the ice bath? I am. And what temperature? Cold.
So on Rogan, I said, you know, low fifties. And he, he like, he was shocked and dismayed. He looked, he seemed, it was like an older brother or guy you respect looking at you like, oh man, should we even continue this podcast? I was like, and I quickly went to, yeah, but I go into the sauna at 220 degrees Fahrenheit, you know, which I do. I'm very heat tolerant, not as cold tolerant.
I like to do cold shower, cold plunge or whatever. Like, you know, low forties now. All right. To me, there is nothing. as reliable and provided you don't like jump into an ice hole or something stupid like that, or do hyperventilation breathing and then jump into cold water, which has killed people.
Provided you don't do that, I don't know of anything that is both safe and reliably can give you that adrenaline spike in a way that you can start to learn to work with what it's like to be in a highly adrenalized state. I think there's just value in having your body flooded with adrenaline,
somewhat against your will but you're controlling some of it and learning i think it's a great space to explore okay do i distract myself do i lean into it like you can you can explore a lot of your own consciousness in these high arousal states and i do think there's carryover and yes there's a nice long wave of dopamine that lasts many hours that's known there's a nice long wave of adrenaline but
Yeah, I think it's a great training tool. You don't want to do it immediately after resistance training because it can reduce some of the quote-unquote gains you would get because it vasoconstricts. You want blood flow. You want to perfuse the muscles in order to get the strength and hypertrophy benefits from the training.
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Chapter 4: What personal challenges does Andy share from his life?
It's not a perfect experiment. The question is, are people getting more dangerous to themselves because they're pushing further and further into the abyss, getting closer to the edge, taking risks? Or is the novice more dangerous because they're a novice?
I think the Dunning-Kruger effect is always the most dangerous aspect of it. I think you would probably track, you certainly see people, especially in the content age, I've seen people reach out, not to me, but to forums, hey, I just want to get into wingsuit-based jumping as fast as possible. And everybody on there is like, whoa, no, you need to go.
I mean, most people will recommend skydiving 200 jumps to even before you put a wingsuit on, which for most people who aren't doing it professionally, that's going to take a year or two. It's a slow progression. But that person reaching out saying that doesn't have time for that. So you're definitely going to get some people early on.
The guys who are around the longest, the ones that I know who are kind of the titans in the sport, it's not that I don't worry about them. I worry less. I think it's maybe more... Honestly, I think it's that Dunning-Kruger curve where it's going to get people, especially when... Let's say you do this amazing job, right?
You're ripping around a corner and things you learn later on, like, hey, is it ascending or descending thermals right now? Where's the wind coming from? What type of day is this? Is the slope... I'm just jumped off. Maybe it was a... Western facing slope that I jumped towards and I felt this amazing uprush of air, which is what you wanna feel on an exit point.
Same thing as why airplanes take off into the wind, it helps with performance. Well, as I am cruising down this mountain, am I thinking about the fact that three quarters of it is covered in the shade and maybe the thermals have switched along the way and you're gonna start feeling this pressure of almost a hand on your back? The first time you do that jump and you survive,
The dangerous thing to say is, nailed it. But did you nail it or did you get away with it? And that's what kills people. And that's that perfect Dunning-Kruger ascending line.
And there's a quote that should be stamped into everyone's brain, young and old. Did you nail it or did you get away with it? Because this translates to a lot of areas of life that could spare people a lot of pain and some important insights.
I got away with it more than I nailed it.
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Chapter 5: What feelings do veterans experience after leaving the military?
I knew something was missing after I had gotten out. And I think a lot of guys find themselves in that kind of abyss of how do I replicate this? Spoiler alert, you can't really, and they have to deal with that and work their way through that. And I'm not recommending that wingsuit skydiving or base jumping is the path for guys getting out. And I specifically wrote about this.
I've seen people who can do this in art, getting lost in creating something or yoga or meditation or ice bath or sauna, or I found a lot of it in the ability to detach and be in the moment in jujitsu. Even though it's totally artificial violence, you're in the moment because it sucks when your friend chokes you because you want to choke your friend, obviously. But you can find it.
Chapter 6: How can people navigate the challenges of life after service?
It doesn't have to be prescriptive. But if you can find your way there, I don't care that nobody can describe what it is. I am here to tell you it will change your life if you can find your way into that space.
It really will. There's a wonderful book in addition to yours. It turns out there's another great book out there. How dare someone?
Chapter 7: What are the signs that someone might be struggling with mental health?
No audio version, but it's called The Secret Pulse of Time. And it's about time perception. And so the idea that comes to mind that maybe we could talk about is perhaps
these endeavors, whether or not it's wingsuiting or producing an album or painting or gardening or whatever it is, jujitsu, whatever it is that somebody does to access this flow state and gets this long tail of post-flow benefit, whatever that is. We don't have a name for it, again.
It seems to calibrate our time perception is one idea that perhaps brings us so much into each moment that it's almost like our ability to capture moments becomes high fidelity. Again, you talked about getting the static out, right?
Chapter 8: How can we create a supportive environment for those in crisis?
And then when we go back into everyday life, it's almost like we're perfectly calibrated. I'm stating a theory here. So now you wake up the next morning, you're home and your kid comes in and they're talking about something and you're thinking, and we'll get back to toilet paper in a little bit.
And you'd be like, listen, dude, you're talking about this, but you didn't take care of the toilet paper. This will become relevant in a moment. If you read Andy's, I've never thought so much about toilet paper rolls in the bathroom and how they're stacked. My girlfriend and I had a conversation about it the other day because of Andy's, but that will all make sense in a few moments.
But it's almost like you can still be in that real world stuff, but your time perception is adjusted so that you know what you're doing. It's just that thing. So then when you pivot to the next thing, you need to sit down and do some work. It's almost like you can adjust your frame rate appropriately.
It's like it pulls you into that. It allows you to sink into those things and digest better, to think better. Yeah, the clarity of thought was just, and it would change how I thought about an argument or a conversation. And it would allow me to look at it from a different perspective. And I have no idea why that was the case, but I agree with what you're saying.
I think there might be some aspect of that, the fidelity and the ability to truly see clearly in that moment. Yeah. pulling you and anchoring you into that. There's something there.
I don't know. Really cool paper came out just the other day showing that when we're stressed, prior memories, while we can still access them, we can't make insightful connections between things. And I won't describe the whole experiment. It was really cool. They basically have people remember pairs of objects, and then there's some link between the two pairs.
So like, it would be like apple yerba mate, and there'll be yerba mate wingsuit. And then at some point later, you need to link, you know, the wingsuit to the apple, right? You know, conceptually, not just that way. They built up from basic things like I just described. And as you ramp up people's levels of stress, you essentially lose the ability to make these connected insights.
And this speaks to the hardwiring and the software that the brain uses. I almost wonder whether or not your stress threshold, as you said, is brought down so that you can now have novel insights. Like, oh, this conversation with my son about the toilet paper is actually important. in a way that isn't just me being annoyed.
And I feel like maybe, maybe it'd be fun to explore this as the science evolves with you and talk about it more. Because I think the reason I'm so obsessed with this is for two reasons. One is navigating everyday life. which is a lot. That's a lot of what people are challenged with. It's so vital. The other is how to navigate the hard stuff in life.
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