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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.
Being locked up in prison is hard, but often the real test comes when you're released. It's no surprise so many end up back inside. In part two of my chat with Talia Isaac, we dig into what happens when the prison doors finally open, why the system is failing women at the exact moment they need it most, and the work Talia is doing through her charity called Project Herself.
This is someone genuinely trying to repay her debt to society. I think it's worth having listened to what she has to say. Talia, welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers. Thanks. I enjoyed our part one. It was a good conversation and it's interesting to get your take on how your life sort of spiralled and the choices that you made, sometimes good ones, sometimes bad ones.
We got you up to the point where shit's hit the fan. You were caught in possession of drugs, charged with commercial supply and a few other charges. You got bail, no conditions, and basically, and I think this was a terminology you might have even used, fuck it. If I'm going to jail, my life's going to be chaotic.
You live that life, but eventually it caught up with you and you appear at court and you end up getting sentenced to prison. What we're going to do in this part is talk very much about how the prison system can be improved and how improved in that sets up people to survive in society after they get out of prison.
But I think to understand the prison system, it's best to hear from you what your experience was.
Yeah, sure. You know, when we talk about, like, improving prison systems, ultimately the current system probably needs to be redesigned rather than improved. And parts of it needs to be totally abolished and other parts need, you know, yeah. So I think we could probably call it a redesign of our justice system.
But, yeah, I guess to answer your question about what it's like to go to prison, you know, you're ā When I was arrested, I had been in prison already. Yep. So, you know, when I was arrested the first time, which is the story that I told in part one. Yeah. After that, I spent, I probably did four or five more stints in the watch house.
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Chapter 2: What challenges do women face upon release from prison?
I was on a curfew, lots of different sort of conditions. And then the last time I was arrested, I was on bail. I had conditions, but I had skirted the conditions. So, I wasn't signing in and there was a warrant.
Okay. So, that was reporting conditions and
So I had to go to the police station and sign in, if people don't know what that sign means. So go to the police station, sign in, say, I'm still here, sort of thing. This is me and present to a police station. So I'm in the Gold Coast, I'm in an apartment and I haven't slept for a while and someone who was had a really serious warrant was also at the Meryton.
And unbeknownst to me, the cops kind of have surveillance in there. And I come up to the apartment, the lift doors open and there's like six coppers standing at the door. Yeah. And like, I don't have anywhere to go. There's nowhere to go. It's like, you have to walk out.
You come out on that level.
So I walked out and they arrested me and I go to the watch house. And I'm in the watch house and I knew I wasn't going to get out this time, but I was in there for two weeks and a watch house is hell. I'm going to talk about it in the book about how hellish it is, but there's no natural light. The lights are on 24 seven. It's freezing cold and it's the coldest I've ever been in my life.
And you never think you're going to be warm again. The food comes to you through a hatch in a really dark, cold box of food with not much food in there or terrible food in there. You're sleeping on concrete with like an itchy blanket and a shower curtain that gets put between you and the itchy blanket so you're not going to get lice.
And you can just hear the screams like all day and all night of men and women withdrawing with mental health conditions. It's a pretty horrific experience. Kind of environment to be in. And you're almost begging to go to prison. Like it's wild. Like when you're in the watch house, women are going, am I on the bus to prison today?
Yeah.
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Chapter 3: How does Tahlia Isaac describe the prison experience for women?
And she just kind of said like, and we were doubled up. So I was sleeping on the floor next to the toilet and she was on the bed because she was in the cell first. And she was just kind of telling me all the things. And I'm quite adaptable and I'm quite smart. And my dad's also going, keep your head down and get involved in anyone's fucking business. Keep to yourself.
Gave you a bit of a... Yeah.
And just...
Because the natural fear, I think anyone first time in jail or even going back the second time, that you ā violence, whether it's physical, sexual abuse, all the concerns that you have going into a prison system.
Yeah. And you also have seen Orange is the New Black and Wentworth.
Yeah.
You know, and this hyper overzealous kind of storytelling from movies that are so ā sensationalized and that's all your reference point is. And also my dad only knew a men's prison. It's like that's his reference point. I'm going into a different place. And so I kept to myself and I just observed and just was smart about it.
And ultimately I was probably hypervigilant and overvigilant about how I showed up, but And whether that was right or wrong, I don't know, but it was, you know, it worked out well for me because I never got myself in any trouble. And there was, I've seen a couple of fights in prison, but over and above what I experienced was like this real sense of community in there.
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Chapter 4: What is the argument for redesigning the prison system?
Yeah. Tell us about the pain of a women's prison. There's pain in all prisons, but we're taken away from their kids. The type of pain that's unique to female prisoners.
Like, yeah, I mean, like, yeah, like you said, like, mums are being taken away from their kids. You've got mums crying at night. You know, you're locked down so then you can't call your kids because there's no access to the phones or the phone line's too long or you don't have cash to put on your phone to call your kids. Like, it's really sad.
And then there's also lots of women who are really angry and they've had institutional contact since they were kids. You know, and they hate being in prison and hate the system and hate the way that they're treated and they're constantly pushing back against it and being punished for that pushback. And there's that pain. And then, you know, there's women trying to self-medicate in there and ā
And there's also a lot of joy. There's also women laughing and lifting each other up and like cooking cakes for each other or, you know, giving them a hug if they've had a really hard phone call or advocating for somebody else who can't advocate for themselves or helping new arrivals into the prison, like going, this is how this is, this, this, this.
Like they, there's the pain, but then there's also the like strength and
I picked up in your book and also in the talks that you've done and the interviews that you've done that you saw people, the good in people in the prison and the vulnerability of them and also the sadness of what found them in prison. Talk to us about that, the people that you came across in prison.
Because this leads into what you're doing with your charity and why you feel so strongly about it. But what were some of the things that you just felt that it's an injustice or it's just not working?
Well, I mean, there was women that I was in a max security facility, like in 22-hour lockdowns into a two-by-four-meter cell who had driven without a license. I'm going, sorry, what? Like, so? So? I don't understand. Why are you in prison? That's not a thing. Surely that's not a thing. But it was. It was, you know.
Are these people disadvantaged socioeconomically?
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Chapter 5: How does the current justice system impact Aboriginal women?
What are you, the union leader? I want back pay. Yeah. The communication with the families, that's so important too because one of the, in my understanding, one of the biggest indicators of people coming back into prison, if they get out of prison, there's no family structure. Right.
They're disconnected.
And if you keep that connection by ā I was surprised how much it costs for prisoners to stay in contact with their family. That was another thing that they did well at Macquarie Correctional Centre. The prisoners said, we've got more access, we can spend ā heap of time speaking to her family and having that communication.
They also had it set up where the visits were more, you know, it wasn't that strict jail environment. They had murals of superheroes that kids could, you know, run around in. So, For the naysayers saying, well, why should they be able to speak to the family?
And I understand it from a victim's point of view, because I worked homicide, so the victims might be saying, well, why should they be allowed? I can't speak to my family. My loved one's been murdered. I understand that. That's raw pain, and it's hard to argue. And I respect their opinion, and they're entitled to that opinion.
Absolutely.
But the majority of people in prison are not in for that type of crime. And as we discussed, the majority of prisoners are going to be released. And to have a family to go back into, I understand. But I can understand the anger that would come from families of victims of homicide that why should they be treated that way.
But I draw from Ken Marslew and I mentioned him a lot and sadly he's passed away. His son was murdered and he set up Enough Is Enough. His son was murdered in horrific circumstances, shot by armed robbers whilst working in the pizza hut. Terribly sad case. Ken was so angry about what happened to his son, marched on parliament.
He wanted tougher legislation, mandatory sentence, all that with Enough Is Enough. Over the years, and it was a progress, over the years, Ken came to the view that, oh, it's not about getting tougher on crime, it's getting smarter on crime. And that's something that really resonated with me. And he had every right to hate every single person that's in prison, what happened to his family.
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