Indo Sport
Who really runs Leinster? | James Lowe confusion | Munster & Connacht's different vibes
04 Jun 2026
Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is an Irish independent podcast.
Well hello and welcome to Indosport and today we're talking rugby ahead of this Saturday's URC semi-final between Leinster and the Stormers. I'm Rory O'Connor sitting in for Joe Malloy and I'm delighted to be joined in studio by Cian Tracy. Hi Cian.
Hey Rud, big shoes to fill there. How's the hot seat feeling?
I try not to think about it, really.
Chapter 2: What are the latest developments in Leinster's media strategy?
And we're joined on the line by former Ireland head coach, Eddie O'Sullivan. How are you doing, Eddie? Great, guys. Good to talk to you. And you. And you. Our rugby coverage is, of course, sponsored by Energia, who support Irish rugby across all levels at grassroots with the Energia AIL and as official energy partner to Leinster Connacht and the Irish men's and women's teams.
The Energy for All initiative supports inclusion and welcomes people of all abilities to participate in the game and to learn more about their rugby partnerships and exclusive home energy offers. For rugby fans, visit energy.ie forward slash rugby. Well, we've lots to get stuck into, lads. There's been a lot happening over the last couple of days.
But first, there's some sad news breaking this morning. out of Blackrock College Rugby Club. Fergus Lattery, one of the all-time greats of Irish rugby, has sadly died at the age of 77. He won 61 caps for Ireland in an era where caps were hard to get. He won the Five Nations in 1974, two Triple Crowns in 82 and 85.
He went on two Lions Tours, both successful Lions Tours in 71, and he played in all the test matches in the series win over South Africa in 74. And he was also, I think he played 18 times for the Barbarians in including he had a hand in the greatest try I think anyone's ever seen against the All Blacks in Cardiff in 73.
Now he's a bit before Keenan and I's time, Eddie, but can you maybe give our younger listeners and viewers a sense of how great a rugby player Fergus Lattery was?
Absolutely, yeah. He was an icon of the game and that's not exaggerating or overstating it. His career was tremendous. I just went through all the stats there. Ireland, 61 caps. Captain Ireland. Captain Ireland's the 1979 Tour in Australia where they won a Test Series down there. They won seven of eight matches and was inducted into the International Hall of Fame in 2007.
So he's an iconic player in the game. He was regarded, and it's hard to compare professional amateur era, but certainly in the amateur era, he was regarded as one of the greatest open side flankers to ever play the game. We're not talking about Ireland, no, we're talking about the world.
And he was involved in phenomenal lines towards, he was involved, as you mentioned, the famous game between New Zealand...
and the All Black Artsite New Zealand and the Barbarians in Cardiff in 1973 and had a hand in that wonderful try that everyone's watched a thousand times so he was an icon of the game I knew him as a player I played against him he played for Leinster as well obviously and I got to know him as well when I was involved with Black Rock College back in the day when I coached in Black Rock College and he
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Chapter 3: How did the passing of Fergus Slattery impact the rugby community?
And Eddie, first, I suppose, before we get into those, we haven't spoken to you since Leinster's Champions Cup final defeat to Bordeaux in Bilbao. What was your take on their performance and maybe the fallout from it over the last kind of 10 days, two weeks?
Well, the last time I was on this podcast, I spoke with Joe and we talked before the final. And Joe asked me what I thought was the potential pitfall for Leinster. And I felt that it came down to one thing, that somebody would figure out someday against Leinster how to crack their famous blitz defence.
And I thought, we saw it last year against Northampton, people thought, oh, maybe a one-off, you know, team wasn't right, didn't pick his best team. But, I mean, effectively, Bordeaux had their homework done. I thought about Nolan McNamara, who's a very smart technical coach. And you saw what Bordeaux did to them. Bordeaux attacked that defence exactly how you would go after it.
and the consequences are catastrophic. We said that someone figures out someday how to break that defence, and they put a really good game plan together, and once that defence cracks, it crumbles. There's no middle ground in it. And I think we saw that... like Bordeaux just took Leinster to the woodshed. It was just awful to watch.
I mean, some of the, some of the tries, I knew early on they were in big, big trouble. You could see very on, like, the first was Cameron Waki's try to assist a load. Like for example, they were caught on the edge that time. There was a four on one. And, I mean, the fact that he got a bad pass meant the hang time on the ball meant they got across to the tackle. It was a good scramble.
And Joachim managed to put his hand in touch as he put it down. But that was... If that pass was on the money, they would have walked it in. But that was the four signs that they were in trouble. It was like a four-on-two overlap. Ellens was so compressed. And then, obviously, the next one you had was the try from the scrum. And... That's exactly how to break a blitz defence from a scrum.
It was a spot out the back of a second receiver and it was just a case of there's nothing they could do. They were beaten left, right and centre and that was a try that was like off the training park and they say now we're in bigger trouble. And then the final one for me where I know this is curtains was Louis Bayberry's try on the 24th minute.
when you saw they had a four-man overlap, and he again got a bad pass, he ducked onto three defenders on the scramble and scored, put it down on the goal line. If you take a picture of the back of that, of the end goal, there's a ruck before the ball's released, there's one Bordeaux attacker on the short side, there's six, six Leinster defenders. Now,
That seems very harsh, but gentlemen, this defence system just fell apart at the big moment. That's a fact. You can't dice it any other way. Now the other tries, the ball was hacked up the field, the intercept, they were all gut punches. But the problem was, is Bordeaux had Leinster's number, they had their defensive number, and they just took them to the woodshed.
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Chapter 4: What were the outcomes of Munster and Connacht's recent seasons?
Well, again, it was weird, not because of what was discussed, which I read the whole narrative that you published. And I just thought that, you see, some press conferences, you win some. It's always easier to do a press conference when you win. OK, that's the obvious. When you lose, it's much more difficult. This press conference, then you go in.
The ones that you know yourselves, they're often very raw, the ones just after the game, because the coach hasn't got time to prep. He's got his own vision of what happened on the field. The media may have a different vision. And what you're doing as a coach, you're trying to construct a narrative around the game and say, this is what I thought happened. You want to control the narrative.
And the media may push back with different versions of it. And that's how it goes over and back. So the one after the game can be often quite edgy because, especially if you lose a big game and a question lands the wrong way, you can ride the coach very easily.
And that's the journalist's job as well, is to try and get below the surface here, ask some awkward questions, how's the coach going to deal with it? But the surprise moment in Arbor is it was in the cold light of day stuff. There was loads of time after the final for him to compose himself, think of what he wanted to message, what he wanted to give, but what was his messaging?
And I just thought that he got... The message was, I'm not feeling the love, which I thought was kind of an extraordinary kind of take for him on the whole thing. I mean, let's take a step back here. I mean, he was brought in three years ago with the whole purpose of... Now, the guy has a wonderful CV. He's two World Cups. He's brought South Africa to the pinnacle a couple of times.
There's no doubt that his influence on that team... you know, with Razzy Rasmus Colossal. So he came in as a big coach. But his MO is this defence. And we can't pretend it's about attack. It's about defence. That you shut teams down, you strangle the life out of them. And the problem is, is that they have fallen at the final hurdle, you know, or close to the final hurdle for three years.
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Chapter 5: What is James Lowe's potential departure from Irish rugby about?
And the defence has been exposed on a number of occasions, on the big occasions, and none more so than the last day. So he has to find a way to talk about that. And the way to talk about it is to be honest and say, you know, Bordeaux got our number. This is where we made mistakes. And that leads to the question, is the defence the right defence for Leinster?
Which is a very fair question at this point. But his spin away was, well, you know, you guys don't love me and I'm not feeling the love. And, you know, I don't feel valued here. I mean, I thought it was just a weird way to go with it because at the end of the day, the best way to feel valued is to land the prize. It's what he was brought in for. You know, he's three years in.
He was going to come in, he was going to change everything. And he did change everything. To his credit, the game was played the way he wanted it to be played. That's a fact. That's a different team than it was three years ago. So there is a lot of these questions have to be ended.
And I just thought to pivot away that, you know, I don't feel the love here or, you know, I'm not valued here or I'm doing my job. I just thought it was a bit bizarre, to be honest. I just thought he should have probably been prepared to answer hard questions on why this team didn't perform on the big day out. He's a coach, so be technical about it. Talk about the ins and outs of it.
Chapter 6: How did Leinster perform in the Champions Cup final?
That's what you're there for. And he didn't. He went up into the ether about the general feeling towards him. So I just thought it was a strange thing to do, particularly... Where he had all that time to prepare for that press conference. He had about a week and a half to get his head around what was going to happen and control the narrative as he wanted to control it.
If he started out talking about what was wrong in that game, where they made mistakes, that changes everything. You guys then have to talk about that to him. So I just thought he didn't manage it very well. But I think, again, it's reflection that goes back to I think these guys are really feeling the pressure. They really are feeling the heat, which is understandable.
But I just thought it was a very strange pivot for him. And I don't think it made a lot of sense at the end of the day because it didn't serve anybody well.
Cian, are you any clearer at this point about Leinster's coaching structure? How it all works? Who's in charge? Who's making decisions? We know Jacques Nienaber is the senior coach. He's not the defence coach as such. Leo is the head coach. We always saw that as more of a director of rugby role. My information, it's growing sense I have is that Leo is more influential than I perhaps appreciated.
And that... Jack Nienaber doesn't have as much autonomy as I previously thought he did have in terms of running the whole show. Now, I've also heard that he's basically doing everything in training. And I've seen the coaching box where Tyler Blyden-Allis had to ask Nienaber basically permission to run plays. So I think there is a hierarchy there.
But I wonder how clear the players are on who's in charge and how it all works, even three years in. It's muddy sometimes.
Yeah and like I think it's important to stress that like certainly my information is that the players really like Jack Nienarber and I think that they would they would probably like to see him have more control and look he Jack Nienarber in terms of Eddie just outlined there not feeling the love he very much put that on you and the media as a whole and the supporters and like there is no doubt that there is a large cohort of supporters who just don't like this way of playing like Eddie has outlined it hasn't delivered the Champions Cup in the three seasons
that he's been here. And I think if it had, supporters would certainly put up with Leinster playing not as attractive rugby as they're used to, whereas when it's still not winning the ultimate prize, which is the Champions Cup, that means frustrations grow.
But I wonder, in terms of that concept of not feeling the love, is he frustrated internally as well, even though he's projecting it externally? Obviously, we're not privy to what goes on behind the scenes. We don't know...
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Chapter 7: What are the implications of Leinster's coaching structure?
I don't see a discernible identity within Munster under Clayton Macmillan. And again, I accepted what's going on. I think back to their highlight of the season was undoubtedly the Crow Park back in October. And to me, that was more of a Mike Prendergast type team in terms of the attack that we saw that night. That seemed to fizzle out as it gone on because I don't think it matches up.
with Clayton McMillan's philosophy which is why Mike Prendergast is on his way to Bath so yeah I think we need to see more from Clayton McMillan if he is going to stay on to be honest because it's all well and good you know signing a Kiwi and you know I think in Irish rugby we're obsessed with you know people from New Zealand because they know everything about rugby but I think supporters are still waiting to see what Clayton McMillan is all about he's a good communicator he speaks well but there's a real old school element is my understanding to the way his training is the way his tactics are
And I think it's really crucial, like I said, that he gets his own man in who can kind of be the good cop maybe to his bad cop. So a big summer ahead. And like I said, Munster fans don't want to be hearing the word reset again.
What would you say about Munster's playing identity in year one of Clayton McMillan-Eddie?
Well, I agree with Cian there. There's no discernible one, really. I mean, they're doing the same as everybody else. And the problem is if you do the same thing as everybody else, you have to do it better than them. And they don't have the horses to do that. I think he'd probably think outside the box, but he's got to do stuff that other teams don't do. He's got to vary stuff.
I mean, innovation is, if you're a bit behind the eight ball here in terms of the horses you have, your best way forward is to innovate and do things differently. That can excite people as well, excite supporters. Now it has to work as well, or at least look like it's working.
But I think his problem can be that if he does more of the same next year, he won't get much further down the track, given the cards he's been dealt. He hasn't got the greatest squad in the world. But it's not a bad squad either. So at the same time, I think he has to try and pivot away and do things a little bit differently. If I was in his shoes, that's what I would do.
He's also dealing with this scenario where, you know, 100 kilometres up the road, Stuart Lancaster's also had a year and we're seeing, although they finished the season lower than Munster on the table and went out at the same stage of the URC, they made it one round further in Southampton.
the Challenge Cup, there's a far more discernible trajectory with Connacht, I would argue, Eddie, that there's an identity. I agree. Lancaster, you can see the progress, you can see the excitement, you can see people are rowing in.
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