Is society too feminine or not feminine enough? Two conservative writers, Helen Andrews and Leah Libresco Sargeant, disagree on the answer. They join Ross Douthat to debate whether the feminization of institutions led to wokeism and a greater divide between men and women.01:33 “Wokeness is distinctively feminine.”06:17 - Has liberal feminism failed women?16:26 - The feminization of institutions20:47 - Defining feminine and masculine vices24:09 - Toxic femininity 39:09 - Defeminization in the workplace(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

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“What did the council decide on item 42?” — answered with the speaker and the moment.