What should the U.S. do next in Venezuela? President Trump’s former Venezuela envoy Elliott Abrams wants the Trump administration to push harder for full regime change. But, he and Ross debate if a democratic transition is even possible based on the administration’s interests and past American efforts in the region.01:15 - The case for regime change in Venezuela07:43 - The Trump administration’s current strategy14:06 - The Abrams Plan: An alternative approach17:50 - Oil blockades, sanctions, and military action28:54 - Past transitions in Latin America36:06 - The Reagan administration's “unsavory allies”43:57 - Trump’s priorities are a “mystery”(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

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“What did the council decide on item 42?” — answered with the speaker and the moment.