Have you been feeling a little Conclave-pilled lately? Well, you're not alone. In the aftermath of of Pope Francis' passing, the world is buzzing at the eligible bachelors who could lead the Catholic Church. So what should we expect for the real-life Conclave? And why does it matter even if you're not Catholic?Brittany is joined by Jason DeRose, NPR's Religion Correspondent, Antonia Cereijido, host of the LAist's Imperfect Paradise podcast. Together they discuss how the Conclave works and what impact Pope Francis' legacy will have on the direction of a church with over 1.4 billion followers worldwide.Follow Brittany on socials @bmluseLearn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: Who are the hosts and guests introducing this episode?
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. This week, we're connecting the dots between Hollywood, Vatican City, and Lampedusa. I know, I know. How are all of these places connected?
Well, we're going to find out with NPR's religion correspondent, Jason DeRose, and the LAist's Antonia Serahito. Jason, Antonia, welcome to It's Been a Minute.
Hello. Thanks so much for having us.
All right, second question. If you were a cardinal in the Vatican right now, would you be one of the chain vapors? Like everyone's like third favorite cardinal from the 2024 film Conclave. Would you be chain vaping right now in the Vatican? Jason, would you?
Chapter 2: What is the fictional portrayal of the Conclave and how does it compare to reality?
I would not be.
I love that principled answer. What about you, Antonia?
I've never vaped, but I feel like it looks cool when the cardinals do it, so maybe I'd be compelled by the vibe. I was a definite yes.
I actually don't vape myself at this point in my life. If I was doing something that consequential, I could see myself getting a little jewel. That's just my opinion. Now, I will say I loved the scenes of any cardinal vaping in the Academy Award-winning film Conclave. It follows a fictional portrayal of the papal conclave following the sudden death of a fictional pope. Sound familiar?
And during this process, the cardinals, they get a little messy as they form political factions and jockey for votes to become the next pontiff. Well, we are about to see that same process play out next week as the world's cardinals converge on Vatican City.
And there is quite a bit at stake here because these men are going to ultimately decide the ideological direction of a church with 1.4 billion followers globally. So that has me wondering, what are the current factions within the Catholic Church? How will Pope Francis's legacy impact the upcoming conclave? And what should we make of Catholicism's broader cultural influence right now?
I know, Jason, that you have seen the movie Conclave, like many of us have. But you are somebody that covers this stuff hard by. You are in Rome right now, okay? So I want to hear the real from you. How exactly does the Conclave work?
Well, after a pope dies, within 15 to 20 days, the eligible cardinals, which means any cardinal from around the world who is under the age of 80... comes to Rome, and they're having meetings right now, in fact, this week and early next week, where they're discussing all of the issues facing the church. And then next week, they will go to Mass, they will process into the Sistine Chapel.
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Chapter 3: How does the Vatican Conclave process work when electing a new pope?
Somebody will say, get out if you're not a cardinal, and they will lock them in. Only the eligible cardinals can be in there, and they will start voting.
Wow, okay. So what does the actual voting process look like?
So these cardinal electors will, on a ballot, a piece of paper, write down the name of the person they want to be pope. And then one at a time, they will walk up to the table at the front of the Sistine Chapel. They will put that piece of paper on a small plate. They will, with that plate, drop the piece of paper, the ballot, into a big chalice. And then after all of the electors have done that,
They will draw the names out one at a time. And there will be three people sitting at that table. The first cardinal will read the name to himself. The next cardinal will read the name to himself. And the next cardinal will read the name aloud. Oh. So that they have three people confirming that that's what that name is.
I like that.
And then the last person who reads it aloud... will, with a needle, pierce the ballot and string it up. This is so that there aren't double votes. So it's this very ceremonial tradition of how the vote happens. And it's completely secret. In fact, the cardinals are asked to maybe disguise your handwriting, although I don't know how you would know anybody else's handwriting.
There are 133 of them, and I don't know how you could recognize that many people's handwriting.
I was going to say, I feel like in this conclave too, many of them have never even met. I don't know if I could recognize the handwriting of a complete stranger from a hundred something other people.
Well, it's interesting that you say they've not met because, you know, Francis appointed so many of them and they're from all over the world and they don't get together like weekly to meet each other and examine each other's handwriting. They get together once in a while. Yeah.
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Chapter 4: What are the current factions and global expectations within the Catholic Church?
I got on a plane as soon as the Pope died. So I don't know what people are saying in the United States. I don't know what people in Rome are saying. And every Italian that I talk to says it's time to have an Italian Pope again. Every cab driver, every server in a restaurant, you know, everybody, every salesperson that I've just chatted with says it's time for an Italian Pope again.
I mean, I could see a little hometown bias in that, for sure, for sure. As I was researching, I had a whole list. I was starting with like 25, 30 names and I was like whittling it down.
I'm imagining you like Claire Danes in Homeland, like the full list.
The full board, like some strings connected.
Yeah.
I want to reflect a little bit before we get into this upcoming conclave. I want to reflect a little bit on Pope Francis's papacy. What was his influence on the church and how will he be remembered? I want to start with you, Antonia, on this and then go to you, Jason.
Well, my interest in the Pope really comes from being an Argentine American. For us, you know, the Pope became the biggest icon and symbol from Argentina, even bigger than Maradona and Lionel Messi, which was... I mean, they're massive. Yeah. So we couldn't believe it. But to me, you know, I think of this moment where I actually saw the Pope in 2016. He did a ride through in Central Park.
I felt like I was in Beatlemania or something. And it was like people were going nuts. And I remember there was like a little Snapchat filter that had like the little Popemobile on the bottom. And I think the thing that has been so interesting about this Pope is that he...
has this influence beyond the church in terms of becoming both a political global figure and also sort of a pop culture figure. Like I think in the same way people talked about Obama being the first internet president, it feels like this was the first internet pope. Interesting. There were so many pope memes of the famous AI image of the pope, the first AI image.
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Chapter 5: How is the public reacting to potential candidates for the next pope?
I was tricked. I thought it was real and I was really into it. But I still love the image. I think it's incredible. You know, he was the first Latin American pope. And I think that for Latin Americans, it was a really big deal to see someone from the area become a world's leader.
And I think a lot of his perspective was shaped very much by his experience in Argentina and seeing a lot of migrants who went through very difficult moments of government repression. in the 80s. And I think that while at the beginning, at least a lot of progressives in Argentina were sort of nervous about him being the Pope.
Once we started to see what values he was espousing as the Pope, a lot of people changed their tune and became very excited about him. I'm very excited to know more about what Jason thinks about how he influenced the church specifically.
Yeah, Jason, please.
Well, I would say that his legacy falls into a few areas. This is not meant to be a comprehensive list. I would say real openness to dialogue. Over the last few years, there was this almost several years-long conversation, which was called a synod on synodality, which basically meant the church talking to itself about how it wanted to be the church together.
The pope wanted to have a conversation that said, I want to hear what people in the pews in Cleveland, Ohio, are saying about what the church should look like in the future. And then I think that there are a few issues that were sort of the big issues in his papacy that will probably, you know, 50 years down the road, people might still talk about.
And I would say his real attention to migrants and poverty. His first trip was to this island Lampedusa, which is an Italian island off the coast of North Africa. because it was where migrants, refugees, were floating to on rafts and boats. And so he really wanted to be present with them and say, the church sees you and hears you. So I would say migrants, a very big issue for him.
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Chapter 6: What was Pope Francis's influence and legacy on the Catholic Church and the world?
Also the environment. He issued two letters about the environment. In a certain way, that did upset some Catholics who say, live in coal country or oil country, whose whole economy is based on fossil fuels, He appointed a huge number of women to various committees throughout the church.
And the final issue that I'll raise is LGBTQ issues, which, you know, the Pope did not change official church teaching. Same-sex sexual activity is still a sin within the Catholic Church. And the church teaches that same-sex sexual attraction is objectively disordered. And that's their phrase, quote unquote, objectively disordered.
But he did allow for priests to bless people in same-sex relationships.
And that seems like a significant move.
That was a huge move. I was, in fact, in Tel Aviv covering the war in Gaza. And when that happened, and I had to get on the line and do a live conversation with all things considered, hoping that the air raid sirens weren't going to go off. Oh, my gosh.
But one of the things that was so interesting is that even though Pope Francis became something of a political figure, you know, there's not really a clear cut way of thinking about the various political positions of these various cardinals. And so I wonder, like, if the new pope were to be more conservative than Pope Francis, how would that affect the global culture overall? around Catholicism.
And is that even the right way to think about all of this?
Something that's been so interesting, and Brittany, you and I talked about this because neither you nor I were raised Catholic, is like, I thought I would just care about Pope Francis because I'm Argentinian and then sort of move on. And I was surprised how invested I feel in this next conclave.
And I think it's a combination of, one, maybe it is just, like, the movie made it feel more accessible, and now there's all these, like, theories on YouTube and TikTok and, like, you know, Steve Kornacki at MSNBC in front of the board, like, doing this as if he's doing his election coverage. So it just feels like there's a lot of, like, brouhaha around it.
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Chapter 7: How has Pope Francis engaged with social, environmental, and cultural issues?
I got one last question. Jason, your editor, Daniel Burke, mentioned that the Cardinals are essentially picking their boss, which kind of blew my mind when he brought that up, because most people don't have the opportunity to do that at their jobs. So why is it helpful to think about this conclave as a workplace saga? I'm wondering. I'd love to hear from both of you on this.
The thing that comes up for me in thinking about this is like often we don't think about our bosses as – the word humility doesn't come up necessarily, you know, when it's somebody telling you what to do. And I think one of the things that so many people described Pope Francis' leadership as humble, that he was very humble in how he presented his ideas.
And I think that's also a huge contrast with a lot of other world leaders, you know, the idea of espousing humility, not having all the answers, giving others a lot of agency in terms of directing decisions for their own lives. Yeah.
You know, I think if you think about, he had a great focus on the idea of being a pastor, a shepherd. The word pastor and shepherd are related etymologically. And if you think of like being in the field with your flock, well, there are certain kinds of bosses that are in the field with their flock who know how to do everything because perhaps they work their way up like Francis did.
It's kind of sick. I'm kind of into that actually. I'm like, maybe we need a conclave at more workplaces and see who survives. Maybe that's the key. Well, Jason, Antonia, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much.
You're welcome.
Thanks so much. And as a thank you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a game with you all. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer? Absolutely. Okay. I'm nervous. Don't be nervous. I am so nervous. Listen, the game is a blast. Okay.
Okay.
We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Stick around.
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