When TikTok user, Slim Kim, posted a video expressing how much she loves 'being skinny,' she set off a wave of internet discourse. What's the line between loving your body and dog-whistling fatphobia? This week, host Brittany Luse is joined by authors Emma Specter and Kate Manne to find out: what's so wrong with loving being skinny?Then, Brittany goes on a field trip to the Anime NYC convention. She and IBAM producer Alexis Williams venture out to find out how generations of Black folks have found comfort, confidence, and fandom in the genre.Support public media and receive ad-free listening & bonus content by joining NPR+ today: https://plus.npr.org/Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: What sparked the conversation about body image?
She's an author and culture writer for Vogue magazine and Kate Mann. She's an author and philosophy professor at Cornell University. Emma, Kate, welcome. Welcome to It's Been a Minute.
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
So good to have you both. Just out of curiosity, what is your favorite thing to be?
I would say rational, kind, hopefully, and political.
Oh, I like those. Those are good descriptors.
I would say on time because it so rarely happens, honestly.
That is amazing. I could never say that about myself. So I really admire that in others. Well, let me set the scene for what we're going to unpack here. Last week, a micro-influencer who goes by the username SlimKim found her 15 seconds of fame when she uploaded a video to TikTok about her favorite thing to be.
My favorite thing to be is skinny. It is my favorite thing to be, and it is my favorite fear to not be. And this is just for me personally. This is all personal to me. But I just wanted to say it out loud because honestly, it's all I think about.
Shakespeare couldn't have written a better line himself. This set off a wave of classic internet discourse around whether these comments were an expression of body positivity or just another phase to fat shaming.
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Chapter 2: What did Slim Kim say about being skinny?
I think when I hear Slim Kim or anyone saying that they love being skinny, the flip side of that is I fear being fat or I hate what I've constructed around the idea of fatness. And I think it's also sending a pretty clear message to the rest of us that our bodies need to look like that too.
Because it's more than just creating community. It's kind of reinforcing this kind of beauty mandate. Kate, what about you? What do you hear in Slim Kim saying skinny is her favorite thing to be?
Yeah, I mean, I think I feel similarly to Emma. And what I think was particularly obnoxious about it, if you unpack it, is saying, I really enjoy this form of unjust privilege that places me in at a major advantage over people who are larger than me when it comes to all sorts of aspects of life that are important. I mean, it's true that it is often easier
for thin people when it comes to employment and education and certainly healthcare. But the answer to that is not just revel in one person's thinness, it's to make the world accessible to all and to dismantle systems of oppression.
One thing I found interesting was that even before Kim posted her video, there were other people recently expressing this kind of sentiment about fat bodies. To share some of these quotes with you.
Not worrying that people are gonna be judging me when I walk out the door solely based on the size of my body? Pretty great. So I'm gonna own that I like being skinnier.
I'm so tired of my old fan base. I don't give a about your identity politics. I voted for Trump and I hate fat people.
These two quotes are a big departure from the body positivity movement that ruled the last decade. What is and what isn't a quote unquote good body has always been a culturally shifting ideal. I think we can all agree on that. But is all this content indicative of that ideal shifting? And if so, what is influencing that shift? Emma, I'd love to hear from you first.
I think this just reminds me that it can take so little quote unquote progress to incite a cultural backlash. What might seem to some like this inflated amount of body positivity, it's a relatively small slice of what the cultural discourse has been.
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Chapter 3: What are the societal implications of loving being skinny?
I am inclined to agree with that. Seems like thin's been pretty omnipresent, at least for my entire life. But I'd love to hear from you on this, Kate. What do you think is influencing this shift we're seeing in body ideals back toward thinness?
I think as well as the backlash that we're seeing to that moment of body positivity, I think there is also this technological aspect of it where the advent of drugs like Ozempic and Wegovy have meant that there is this now means for some people with means of accessing thinness in a new way.
And because that takes capital, it takes money, it takes socioeconomic status to access, it is now a marker of elevated socioeconomic status to be very, very thin or to lose weight. And so I think that that is part of why we've seen this trend towards greater thinness than ever because, frankly, it's a sign that you can afford a drug that will shrink you down to size.
Or even if you aren't exploring weight loss drugs, fitness trainers and 24-7 access to fresh whole foods are also extremely expensive. I don't want to lose sight of the fact that Miss Slim Kim, Miss Slim Kim is a black woman.
Honestly, when Slim Kim was getting a lot of critique, I saw black women that otherwise had shared progressive views and progressive politics defending her or saying that they can understand where she was coming from to a certain degree, which was really fascinating to me. I've been thinking for days about what that's about.
And the best that I can come up with is that it would make sense that if you cannot access certain privileges in other ways, like through your race or ethnicity, then perhaps accessing the privileges of thinness might become even more appealing to you.
I mean, one of the comments in Slim Kim's video, like on the actual video, said something to the tune of, you know, being thin is as valuable or more valuable than having a master's degree. People were liking that comment. People agreed with that comment, right?
Yeah, I mean, that's the kernel of truth in her video. And I do think compassion is warranted. It is in many ways easier to access goods that are in particularly short supply for marginalized folks if you have that cultural capital of thinness. And there was a particular phrase of hers. She said that her favorite thing to fear is not being skinny.
So this isn't just reveling in her current thinness. It's saying she's afraid of what would happen to her or how she'd be viewed or treated if she was larger.
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Chapter 4: How does privilege relate to body ideals?
Absolutely. And I also just think that, you know, when it comes to bodily autonomy, your body is yours. And do I wish for you that you would have bigger dreams for it than just being small? Absolutely. But I don't get to tell anyone else how to live inside their body.
I mean, you could consider yourself to be able-bodied and thin one day and have something happen that changes both of those ways of being the next. And I think even if you don't see the...
painful and difficult discourse around fat phobia and how bodies should look as applying to you now, it's worth getting invested in because unfortunately we're not guaranteed anything, let alone the continued shape of our bodies in the ways that most please us.
Emma, Kate, I have learned so much here. Thank you both so much for joining us today.
Thanks so much for having me.
Thank you, Brittany. Thank you, Kate. And as a thank you, I'd like to teach you something by playing a game with you all. Can you stick around for a tiny bit longer? For sure. Absolutely. We'll be right back with a little game I like to call, But Did You Know? Stick around. All right, all right. We're going to play a little game I like to call, What Did You Know? Here's how it works.
I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week. And as I give you some background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry, it's all multiple choice. The right answer is in there somewhere. The first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. Person with the most points wins and their prize is bragging rights. Are y'all ready? Yes. Let's do it.
All right. I love this energy. Okay, to start. Late Sunday evening, President Joe Biden announced he signed a full and unconditional pardon for his son, Hunter Biden. But he isn't the first president to pardon a relative. Which one of these former U.S. presidents also used the power of the Oval Office to pardon a family member? Was it A. Andrew Jackson, B. Bill Clinton, or C. Calvin Coolidge?
I was going to say Gerald Ford, so I don't think I'm winning this one.
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Chapter 5: What role do weight loss drugs play in body image?
The time had already been served, but the pardon cleared his criminal record. Mm-hmm. Okay. Question number two, the president's pardon for his son caught major headlines, but he also issued two other pardons on November 25th, carrying on the time-honored tradition of presidentially pardoning turkeys from being eaten on Thanksgiving.
Which one of these real turkeys was not pardoned by the president this year? Was it A, Abe? B, blossom. Or C, peach. Peach? Abe. Emma says peach. Kate says Abe. And Kate, you were right. The answer is A, Abe. Hooray. Completely random. Yes, good guess, good guess. Abe was actually the name of a turkey pardoned in 2015 by President Obama, who nicknamed Abe Totis, or Turkey of the United States.
There you go. All right, to recap the score, Emma, you are at zero points. Kate, you are at one point. So without further ado, the final question. You know what? Because I'm in a mood today. I want to keep the competition moving. We're going to make this one three points. It's going to be three points so that the winner can take all. All right. Question number three.
While Biden's pardon is certainly notable, it pales in comparison to the thousands of pardons that other presidents have issued. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who served 13 years in office, is said to have issued the most pardons. How many? Did he issue A, 1,250 pardons, B, 6,405 pardons, or C, 3,687 pardons? C? Emma says C. I'm going to say B. What's the difference?
3687.
3,687 pardons. A lot of FDR's pardons were individuals involved in labor strikes, protests, and prohibition offenders. Okay, let's go, FDR. I know. I was like, okay, pro-labor. I'm interested. I'm interested. All right. Well, that's it for But Did You Know? For this week, congratulations to Emma on your win.
Congratulations, Emma.
Thank you. I certainly wasn't randomly guessing. I regularly study presidential parties in my spare time.
That's what we love to hear. Oh my gosh. Well, Kate, Emma, thank you both so much for joining me today. This is great.
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Chapter 6: Why is it important to discuss body positivity and fatphobia?
Shout out to Kiki's Delivery Service. And I knew being a Black fan wasn't necessarily uncommon, but it wasn't until we went to Anime NYC that I was like, whoa. First of all, million black people in here.
A lot of black people here.
It's just like being any place else in New York.
I've never seen this many black people and black anime fans in the same room. It's usually just me.
You know, Brittany, I have been an anime fan for a very long time. I have seen the tides change, but this is like the best time to be a Black anime fan because anime is just cool now.
I'm a newbie myself. And part of what even got me into this was just all these different anime memes made by Black people. You know black people love them a meme, Charles. I was like, I don't understand this. And I want to be let into the club. The black anime fandom is out here.
I mean, we've been out here, been here. But now it's like on a whole nother level. I mean, earlier this year, Olympian Noah Lyles, who is now the fastest man in the world. Right. Ran his Olympic trial race with Yu-Gi-Oh trading cards in his pocket. Yeah.
like the children's cartoon yeah he said it's time to duel let's get down i got the left and right arms and i got the legs coming tomorrow because they're speaking german to me man so i'm glad i hope everybody don't understand all the yugioh fans know something big is coming i did not know he did that in an interview Listen, Brittany, he brought out the cars. He won the race. Who knows?
Maybe Yu-Gi-Oh! did it. Who can say? But my personal favorite, and Brittany, you already know this, but for the listeners, I am a stallionaire. I'm a hot girl. I'm a huge Megan Thee Stallion fan. And earlier this year, Megan Thee Stallion released Otaku Hot Girl, which samples a very well-known clip from the popular anime series Jujutsu Kaisen.
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Chapter 7: What was the experience at Anime NYC?
And I think that is a story, a narrative that really resonates with young Black people in general because of these different themes of having to deal with discrimination, having to deal with poverty, having to deal with social isolation.
That is Dr. David Stevens. He is a professor of media studies at the University of Memphis. And I found it so interesting that he said this because it was literally the exact same thing someone said to me at the convention last year.
From American media, it just always seemed very easy for the character to get what they needed or they were liked by everyone. And anime, a lot of their characters started from the bottom. They were, or even if not from the bottom, they were ostracized or everybody may not have liked them, but they kept at it and kept working. And I feel like as a culture, That's us. We work at our craft.
We're good at what we do and still always not accepted. So for me, I saw these characters and I was like, yo, they're funny, they're smart, and people don't like them still, but they're fire.
Oh, that is a very relatable experience. It's so interesting, though, that that was something that both an academic and researcher noticed that also just your everyday fan would pick up on as well. That's so cool.
Honestly, finding people like Alfred and David really opened my eyes to the fact that we don't have a lot of research or at least don't put a lot of stake into the importance of Black fandom.
especially as it pertains to things like anime and how Black people's perception of it, how Black people receive it, sort of shape the ways in which they think about their identity in relation to each other, but also the wider world. But when you go outside the norm, you know, there's always going to be a little friction.
As we're seeing the expansion of Black anime fans and their own personal identity, we're also seeing pushback from outside of Black communities who conceive of anime communities in more traditional ways.
And we heard that from Black fans at Anime NYC as well.
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Chapter 8: How has the perception of Black anime fans changed?
We are treated bad. Like, we are legit treated bad. You will hear comments like the N-word, monkeys, even with saying like, oh, this character is not Black.
I mean, unfortunately, it is sadly unsurprising to hear about racism within a fandom community, because I feel like that happens often enough with Star Wars and Hunger Games and whatnot. But I also know that anime isn't exactly perfect as a genre when it comes to representation either. I mean, I'm not deep in the fandom, but I've Definitely heard about some of the hiccups there.
Oh, 100%. This is not an anime is the cure to Western media's racism take at all. But if we are going to talk about racism in anime, I think I have to bring up an example. We have mentioned Dragon Ball Z already, but... Oh, I think I know where this is going. Do you know Mr. Popo? Uh-huh. Brittany, would you mind describing Mr. Popo to our listeners?
First of all, Jumpscare. That's the first thing. Jumpscare. He looks honestly like a gollywog, like one of those racist little dolls. I'm serious. I mean, this is a rather rotund character with an all black mask. pitch black body, a big fat red loop for lips. I mean, this looks like a classic Sambo character, but with a turban on top and two like bangles over each arm like a genie.
Listen, Mr. Popo has been the center of a lot of controversy and rightfully so. But David had an interesting take on Mr. Popo I had never heard before.
we have to be careful as Western audiences to understand that anime is a primarily Japanese form of expression. And as such, we have to think about the sort of geographical and the cultural context. This really comes into play when we think about the interpretation of Black characters.
And I really should sort of put that in quotes because it is often nebulous, the racial and ethnic character of some of the people that we see on screen.
Wait, so- Mr. Popo isn't meant to be Black? Listen, I don't know what Mr. Popo is, except very strange. But based on Dragon Ball Z lore, he is a genie. But David had an interesting idea about how Mr. Popo's depiction may be more complicated than we thought.
He's kind of the classic racial archetype that people critique in Japanese animes, who really takes on the look of a traditional minstrel character that we see in American history that was used to mock and deride Black people. That character, who wears a turban, also possesses characteristics of South Asian or Indian cultures. I think that's also an interpretation that
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