Jag Duggal is chief product officer at Nubank, a decacorn neobank founded in Brazil. It’s valued at over $30 billion, is bigger than Coinbase, Robinhood, Affirm, and SoFi combined, has 100 million customers (more than Bank of America!) while only operating in three countries in Latin America, and 80% to 90% of its growth comes through word of mouth. Prior to Nubank, Jag was a director of product management at Facebook, a senior vice president at Quantcast, and a product leader at Google. In our conversation, we discuss:• How Nubank builds a fanatical user base• Tactics for driving word-of-mouth growth• Measuring customer love through the Sean Ellis score• The importance of strategic clarity• The role of category design in creating successful products• Why companies should strive to be “fundamentally different,” not “incrementally better”• Nubank’s vision for an AI-powered banking future—Brought to you by:• WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs• Mercury—The powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank• OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster—Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/be-fundamentally-different-jag-duggal—Where to find Jag Duggal:• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jagduggal/—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Jag’s background(04:34) Nubank’s remarkable achievements(06:01) Nubank’s product development process(11:23) Nubank’s values(12:16) Building products people love fanatically(15:21) The Sean Ellis score(21:27) An example project using the Sean Ellis score(25:07) Picking up the phone and calling customers(28:20) The importance of starting small and iterating(30:42) Pushing back effectively(34:10) Uncovering pain points through customer research(37:53) An example of setting a clear hypothesis(42:01) Developing a strategy(52:16) “Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better”(53:10) Category design(57:37) Nubank’s founding story and goals for the future(01:00:46) Advice for adding new product lines(01:03:46) The future of fintech and banking(01:09:23) AI corner(01:12:34) Failure corner(01:20:24) Key takeaways(01:22:11) Lightning round—Referenced:• Nubank: https://nubank.com.br/en/• Coinbase: https://www.coinbase.com/• Robinhood: https://www.robinhood.com/• SoFi: https://www.sofi.com/• Affirm: https://www.affirm.com/• Lemonade: https://www.lemfi.com/• Bank of America: https://www.bankofamerica.com/• Nubank achieves a world record with more than 7 million people participating in NuBolão in one month: https://building.nubank.com.br/nubank-achieves-world-record-with-nubolao• Nu México carries out first financial transaction 20 meters under the depth of the sea: https://www.bnamericas.com/en/news/nu-mexico-carries-out-first-financial-transaction-20-meters-under-the-depth-of-the-sea• David Vélez on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-v%C3%A9lez-1004875• Cristina Junqueira on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crisjunqueira• Edward Wible on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamedwardwible• Sequoia Capital: https://www.sequoiacap.com/• Churrascaria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churrascaria• Nubank’s real foundation: our culture and values: https://building.nubank.com.br/nubank-culture-and-values/• Working Backwards Press Release Template and Example: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/working-backwards-press-release-template-example-ian-mcallister/• Sean Ellis test: https://productcoalition.com/using-sean-ellis-test-for-measuring-your-product-market-fit-c8ac98053c2c• How to know if you’ve got product-market fit: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-know-if-youve-got-productmarket• Reid Hoffman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reidhoffman/• Ultravioleta: Nubank expands its premium card offer and adds new features on the product’s first anniversary: https://international.nubank.com.br/company/ultravioleta-nubank-expands-its-premium-card-offer-and-adds-new-features-on-the-products-first-anniversary/• Jeff Bezos: Amazon and Blue Origin | Lex Fridman Podcast #405: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcWqzZ3I2cY• The Innovation Method Behind Swiffer Madness: https://www.fastcompany.com/3006797/innovation-method-behind-swiffer-madness• Kevin Systrom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinsystrom/• Good Strategy, Bad Strategy | Richard Rumelt: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/good-strategy-bad-strategy-richard• Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-Difference-Matters/dp/0307886239• The Crux: How Leaders Become Strategists: https://www.amazon.com/Crux-How-Leaders-Become-Strategists/dp/1541701240/• How to become a category pirate | Christopher Lochhead (author of Play Bigger, Niche Down, Category Pirates, more): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-become-a-category-pirate-christopher• Play Bigger: How Pirates, Dreamers, and Innovators Create and Dominate Markets: https://www.amazon.com/Play-Bigger-Dreamers-Innovators-Dominate/dp/0062407619• Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works: https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Win-Strategy-Really-Works/dp/142218739X• A framework for finding product-market fit | Todd Jackson (First Round Capital): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-framework-for-finding-product-market• Citi: https://www.citi.com/• Santander Bank: https://www.santanderbank.com/• Fidji Sumo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fidjisimo/• Harvard Kennedy School: https://www.hks.harvard.edu/• Susan Wojcicki on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-wojcicki-b136a99/• Coldplay—“Lost+” ft. Jay-Z: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkCDRm_YRFg• Google Buys DoubleClick for $3.1 Billion: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/14/technology/14DoubleClick.html• Real-time bidding: https://support.google.com/authorizedbuyers/answer/6136272• From Third World to First: The Singapore Story: 1965-2000: https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-Singapore-1965-2000/dp/0060197765/• The Gilded Age on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-gilded-age• Lomi: https://lomi.com/• Nubank careers: https://international.nubank.com.br/careers/—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

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