From managing people to managing AI: The leadership skills everyone needs now | Julie Zhuo (Facebook VP, Sundial CEO, The Making of a Manager author)
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What are the core leadership skills needed to manage AI agents?
We're seeing this kind of flattening of orgs, everyone's becoming an IC again.
It used to be, okay, I don't have the skills to do 10 different jobs. But now with AI, it allows me to do many of those jobs myself. We need to dissolve the boundaries of these traditional roles and call ourselves builders. I'd love for us to get to the world where that's the title.
I also just saw Stat Google let go of so many of their middle managers.
Management is still really critical. You have a North Star, you have a vision, and you're just trying to figure out how to use the resources that you have to get that thing done. Used to be people, but now it's basically models. And different models have different strengths. You kinda have to assemble the adventures so that you can use the right tools for the right purposes.
What do you feel is the biggest change in the role in life of a manager these days?
It's always been manager's job to manage change. I just think the rate of change is accelerating. Today, management is really about this idea of be sturdy while being flexible. So I think about this metaphor a lot of the willow tree. It can survive a lot of storms, disasters, etc., but it's also very flexible.
You have such an interesting trajectory from being head of design to now being obsessed with data and analytics.
You wanna diagnose with data and treat with design. Data is not a tool that's gonna tell you what you should build. I don't actually think a lot of the fast growing companies are using data well at this point. Traditionally, things just didn't grow that fast. These companies are totally getting by on just good instincts and good vibes, but what always happens is eventually things stop growing.
Today, my guest is Julie Zoo. Julie was my first ever guest on this podcast, which I recorded over three years ago. So this is a very special conversation. As I've shared many times before in other places, Julie's newsletter, The Looking Glass, was the inspiration for my newsletter and basically led to everything that I do now. If you're not familiar with Julie, she was the longtime head of design for the Facebook. Facebook app used by over 3 billion people. She's also the author of the best-selling and very important book, The Making of a Manager. And most recently, she started her own company, Sundial, which is an AI-powered analyst used by companies like OpenAI, Gamma, and Character AI. Julie is one of the most thoughtful and insightful product leaders that I've ever come across.
And she's also got one of the most interesting perspectives on. Product building, having worked at a mega large corp like Meta as head of design, and now as a founder at a tiny startup that's all about using data to help you make decisions. It's really rare for someone to have this spectrum of experiences. In our conversation, we talk about how learning to be a great manager directly translates to learning how to use AI tools extremely well, which specific skills will become more valuable in the The next couple of years, her most valuable and timeless advice for new managers, why she's not hiring product managers at her startup, her simple heuristic for knowing when to use data and when to use intuition in making decisions, there's something in this episode for everyone.
And if you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously. And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter you get 15 incredible products for free for an entire year including lovable replate bolt n8 and linear superhuman descript whisper flow gamma perplexity warp granola magic patterns recast chapter d and mobbin head on over to lenny's newsletter.com and click product pass with that I bring you Julie Zoo This episode is brought to you by Mercury. I've been banking with Mercury for years. And honestly, I can't imagine banking any other way at this point. I switched from Chase, and holy moly, what a difference. Sending wires, tracking spend, giving people on my team access to move money around so freaking easy.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What are the core leadership skills needed to manage AI agents?
0:00–12:56
2
How can traditional manager skills translate to working with AI agents?
12:56–26:18
3
What is the 'diagnose with data, treat with design' framework and how does it balance intuition and metrics?
26:18–38:43
4
Why are hypergrowth AI companies struggling with data infrastructure and how does that impact product development?
38:43–51:55
5
How can managers give effective feedback and create win‑win situations?
51:55–1:03:37
6
What AI tools accelerate learning and skill development for engineers and designers?
1:03:37–1:15:31
7
How should managers approach career growth and role decisions in a rapidly changing AI landscape?
1:15:31–1:25:36
8
What life lessons does the guest share for teaching children about emotional regulation in an AI‑driven world?
1:25:36–1:36:20
Speakers
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