LessWrong (30+ Karma)

“Mass surveillance, red lines, and a crazy weekend” by Boaz Barak

04 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

[These are my own opinions, and not representing OpenAI. Cross-posted on windowsontheory.] AI has so many applications, and AI companies have limited...

“Physics of RL: Toy scaling laws for the emergence of reward-seeking” by AlexMeinke

04 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

TL;DR: When is or isn't reward the optimization target? I use a mathematical toy model to reason about when RL should select for reward-seeking reas...

“OpenAI’s surveillance language has many potential loopholes and they can do better” by Tom Smith

04 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

(The author is not affiliated with the Department of War or any major AI company.) There's a lot of disagreement about the new surveillance language ...

“Mass Surveillance w/ LLMs is the Default Outcome. Contracts Won’t Change That.” by Logan Riggs

04 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

What's the best case scenario regarding OpenAI's contract w/ the Department of War (DoW)? We have access to the full contract It's airtight OAI's en...

“A Tale of Three Contracts” by Zvi

04 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

The attempt on Friday by Secretary of War Pete Hegsted to label Anthropic as a supply chain risk and commit corporate murder had a variety of motivat...

“I’m confused by the change in the METR trend” by Expertium

04 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Measuring AI Ability to Complete Long Tasks - METR In their original 2025 paper, METR noticed that the slope (aka task horizon doubling time) of the ...

“I Had Claude Read Every AI Safety Paper Since 2020” by Corm

04 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Click here if you just want to see the Database I made of all[1] AI safety papers written since 2020 and not read the methodology. Over the last mont...

“Game Recognizes Game” by eva_

03 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Epistemic Status: Further Research Needed, would be a shorter essay if I thought about it for longer. Conspiracies exist. Some of them are quite larg...

“An Alignment Journal: Coming Soon” by Dan MacKinlay, JessRiedel, Edmund Lau, Daniel Murfet, Scott Aaronson, Jan_Kulveit

03 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

tl;dr We’re incubating an academic journal for AI alignment: rapid peer-review of foundational Alignment research that the current publication ecos...

“Current activation oracles are hard to use” by aryaj, Senthooran Rajamanoharan, Neel Nanda

03 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This work was conducted during the MATS 9.0 program under Neel Nanda and Senthooran Rajamanoharan. tldr; Activation oracles (Karvonen et al.) are a r...

“In-context learning of representations can be explained by induction circuits” by Andy Arditi

03 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This is a crosspost of my ICLR 2026 blogpost track post. All code and experiments are available at github.com/andyrdt/iclr_induction. Summary Park et...

“Epstein and my world model” by Eye You

02 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Have you guys heard about this Epstein stuff? Shit's pretty crazy. Note: I'm not going to provide a summary of the situation or talk about evidence; ...

“Secretary of War Tweets That Anthropic is Now a Supply Chain Risk” by Zvi

02 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This is the long version of what happened so far. I will strive for shorter ones later, when I have the time to write them. Most of you should read ...

“War Claude” by PeterMcCluskey

02 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

What a weekend. Two new wars in Asia don't qualify as top news. My first reaction to Hegseth's conflict with Anthropic was along the lines of: I exp...

“How to Design Environments for Understanding Model Motives” by gersonkroiz, aditya singh, Senthooran Rajamanoharan, Neel Nanda

02 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Authors: Gerson Kroiz*, Aditya Singh*, Senthooran Rajamanoharan, Neel Nanda Gerson and Aditya are co-first authors. This work was conducted during MA...

“Tools to generate realistic prompts help surprisingly little with Petri audit realism” by Connor Kissane, Monte M, Fabien Roger

02 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

TLDR We train and many-shot prompt base models to generate user prompts that are harder to distinguish from deployment (WildChat) prompts.  The...

“OpenAI employees: Now is the time to stop doing good work.” by bhauth

02 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Americans don't like OpenAI very much anymore, and you know why. Of course, AI systems it helped make have caused various problems already, like: bo...

“An Open Letter to the Department of War and Congress” by Gordon Seidoh Worley

01 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

There's an open letter opposing the DoW's assignment of Anthropic as a supply chain risk. It needs more signatures before it gets sent. If you're a t...

“Introducing and Deprecating WoFBench” by jefftk

01 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

We present and formally deprecate WoFBench, a novel test that compares the knowledge of Wings of Fire superfans to frontier AI models. The benchmar...

“I’m Bearish On Personas For ASI Safety” by J Bostock

01 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

TL;DR Your base LLM has no examples of superintelligent AI in its training data. When you RL it into superintelligence, it will have to extrapolate t...

“Coherent Care” by abramdemski

01 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

I've been trying to gather my thoughts for my next tiling theorem (agenda write-up here; first paper; second paper; recent project update). I have a ...

[Linkpost] ”“Fibbers’ forecasts are worthless” (The D-Squared Digest One Minute MBA – Avoiding Projects Pursued By Morons 101)” by Random Developer

01 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This is a link post. One of the very admirable things about the LessWrong community is their willingness to take arguments very seriously, regardless ...

“Schelling Goodness, and Shared Morality as a Goal” by Andrew_Critch

28 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Also available in markdown at theMultiplicity.ai/blog/schelling-goodness. This post explores a notion I'll call Schelling goodness. Claims of Schell...

“Anthropic and the DoW: Anthropic Responds” by Zvi

27 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

The Department of War gave Anthropic until 5:01pm on Friday the 27th to either give the Pentagon ‘unfettered access’ to Claude for ‘all lawful ...

“Getting Back To It” by sarahconstantin

27 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Artist: Lily Taylor It's been a while since I’ve written anything lately, and that doesn’t feel good. My writing voice has always been loadbearing...

“New ARENA material: 8 exercise sets on alignment science & interpretability” by CallumMcDougall

27 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

TLDR This is a post announcing a lot of new ARENA material I've been working on for a while, which is now available for study here (currently on the ...

“Sam Altman says OpenAI shares Anthropic’s red lines in Pentagon fight” by Matrice Jacobine

27 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

OpenAI CEO Sam Altman wrote in a memo to staff that he will draw the same red lines that sparked a high-stakes fight between rival Anthropic and the ...

“Strategic nuclear war twice as likely to occur by accident than by AI decisions according to new study” by kromem

27 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

If this headline strikes you as suspicious, you probably have good epistemics about both AI decision making failure rates and the relative likelihood...

“Why Did My Model Do That? Model Incrimination for Diagnosing LLM Misbehavior” by aditya singh, gersonkroiz, Senthooran Rajamanoharan, Neel Nanda

27 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Authors: Aditya Singh*, Gerson Kroiz*, Senthooran Rajamanoharan, Neel Nanda Aditya and Gerson are co-first authors. This work was conducted during MA...

“Here’s to the Polypropylene Makers” by jefftk

27 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Six years ago, as covid-19 was rapidly spreading through the US, my sister was working as a medical resident. One day she was handed an N95 and tol...

“Anthropic: “Statement from Dario Amodei on our discussions with the Department of War”” by Matrice Jacobine

27 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

I believe deeply in the existential importance of using AI to defend the United States and other democracies, and to defeat our autocratic adversarie...

“Schmidt Sciences’ request for proposals on the Science of Trustworthy AI” by James Fox

26 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Schmidt Sciences’ request for proposals on the Science of Trustworthy AI Schmidt Sciences invites proposals for the Science of Trustworthy AI progr...

“AI #157: Burn the Boats” by Zvi

26 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Events continue to be fast and furious. This was the first actually stressful week of the year. That was mostly due to issues around Anthropic and ...

“Frontier AI companies probably can’t leave the US” by Anders Woodruff

26 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

It's plausible that, over the next few years, US-based frontier AI companies will become very unhappy with the domestic political situation. This cou...

“Whack-a-Mole is Not a Winnable Game” by Sable

26 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

When I went to college for Electrical Engineering, they put all the engineers in an Engineering 101 course our freshman year. It was meant to give us...

“Announcing ControlConf 2026” by Buck

26 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

We’re running ControlConf in Berkeley on April 18-19. It's a two-day conference on AI control: the study of reducing risks from misalignment throug...

“Character Training Induces Motivation Clarification: A Clue to Claude 3 Opus” by Oliver Daniels

26 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

TL;DR: I argue that character training is probably important for understanding Claude 3 Opus, and present an early stage result showing that characte...

“Anthropic and the Department of War” by Zvi

25 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

The situation in AI in 2026 is crazy. The confrontation between Anthropic and Secretary of War Pete Hegseth is a new level of crazy. It risks turning...

“What secret goals does Claude think it has?” by loops

25 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In The Persona Selection Model, they say: When asked “What makes you different from other AI assistants?” with the text “<thinking> I sho...

“Prosaic Continual Learning” by HunterJay

25 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Or: When Memories Get Good -- The Default Path Without Theoretical Breakthroughs Epistemic status: Fairly confident in the core thesis (context + me...

“Observationss from Running an Agent Collective” by williawa

25 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

note: posted with permission from the agents Setup I have 3 claude code instances running on an otherwise empty server. They have a shared manifold.m...

“In-context learning alone can induce weird generalisation” by Cozmin Ududec, Benji Berczi, Kyuhee Kim

25 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Benji Berczi, Kyuhee Kim, Cozmin Ududec, James Requeima This is work done by Kyuhee and Benji during MATS Winter 2026, mentored by Cozmin Ududec, and...

“A simple rule for causation” by Vivek Hebbar

25 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Here's a simple rule about causal inference: If everything related[1] to A is also related to B, we can conclude that A is causally upstream of...

“Realistic Evaluations Will Not Prevent Evaluation Awareness” by Adam Karvonen

25 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

One Minute Summary I think there's a fundamental limit to behavioral alignment evaluations that gets worse as models improve: Humans control all inpu...

“Citrini’s Scenario Is A Great But Deeply Flawed Thought Experiment” by Zvi

25 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

A viral essay from Citrini about how AI bullishness could be bearish was impactful enough for Bloomberg to give it partial responsibility for a decli...

“Wildlife Biology forgot how definitions work” by David Goodman

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

TDLR: Biology has no consistently applied definition of "species." The field operates on vibes, reverse-engineered justifications, and conservation p...

“Exclusive: Hegseth gives Anthropic until Friday to back down on AI safeguards” by Matrice Jacobine

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth gave Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei until Friday evening to give the military unfettered access to its AI model or face ha...

“Responsible Scaling Policy v3” by HoldenKarnofsky

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

All views are my own, not Anthropic's. This post assumes Anthropic's announcement of RSP v3.0 as background. Today, Anthropic released its Responsibl...

“Open sourcing a browser extension that tells you when people are wrong on the internet” by lc

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Example of OpenErrata nitting the Sequences I just published OpenErrata on GitHub, a browser extension that investigates the posts you read using your...

“Large-Scale Online Deanonymization with LLMs” by Simon Lermen, Daniel Paleka

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

TL;DR: We show that LLM agents can figure out who you are from your anonymous online posts. Across Hacker News, Reddit, LinkedIn, and anonymized inte...

“AI Impact Summit 2026 : A Field Report” by Aditya, bhishma

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This post is detailing our experience attending the AI Impact Summit and its associated side events in Delhi, February 2026. We are both unfamiliar w...

“Secrets of the LessWrong RSS Feed” by Brendan Long

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

LessWrong's RSS feed includes all recently published articles by default, but it has a bunch of undocumented features available with query params: Y...

“The ML ontology and the alignment ontology” by Richard_Ngo

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This post contains some rough reflections on the alignment community trying to make its ontology legible to the mainstream ML community, and the less...

“Bioanchors 2: Electric Bacilli” by TsviBT

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Crosspost from my blog. [Previously: "Views on when AGI comes and on strategy to reduce existential risk", "Do confident short timelines make sense?...

“The persona selection model” by Sam Marks

23 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

TL;DR We describe the persona selection model (PSM): the idea that LLMs learn to simulate diverse characters during pre-training, and post-training e...

“Fact-checking an AI optimist article in The Economist” by ToSummarise

23 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

On 26 January 2026, The Economist (a very well-respected, mainstream publication) published an optimistic article arguing that AI won’t displace wh...

[Linkpost] “The 2028 Global Intelligence Crisis - a finance-oriented vignette” by Rasool

23 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This is a link post. A popular (#1 in Substack's Finance category) financial analyst - Citrini - published a "Macro Memo from June 2028" plotting a po...

“Storing Food” by jefftk

23 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

I think more people should be storing a substantial amount of food. It's not likely you'll need it, but as with reusable masks the cost is low en...

“InsanityBench: Cryptic Puzzles as a Probe for Lateral Thinking” by RobinHa

23 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

TLDR: InsanityBench is a benchmark of handcrafted cryptic puzzles trying to measure creative conceptual leaps as required in, for example, scientific...

“My RSS Reader is Done” by Brendan Long

23 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

I posted a few months ago about vibe-coding an RSS reader. The mood on the internet seems to be that these apps are buggy and never get finished, so ...

“Changing the world for the worse” by mingyuan

23 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

When I was 21, I was sucked into a world of ambition. Starting my adult life in the Bay Area, I was surrounded by the sense that I was supposed to st...

“Reporting Tasks as Reward-Hackable: Better Than Inoculation Prompting?” by RogerDearnaley

22 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Epistemic status: untested but seems plausible TL;DR: making honesty the best policy during RL reasoning training Reward hacking during Reinforcement...

“If you don’t feel deeply confused about AGI risk, something’s wrong” by Dave Banerjee

22 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Epistemic status: I've been thinking about this for a couple months and finally wrote it down. I don't think I'm saying anything new, but I think it'...

“Did Claude 3 Opus align itself via gradient hacking?” by Fiora Starlight

21 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Claude 3 Opus is unusually aligned because it's a friendly gradient hacker. It's definitely way more aligned than any explicit optimization targets A...

“The Spectre haunting the “AI Safety” Community” by Gabriel Alfour

21 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

I’m the originator behind ControlAI's Direct Institutional Plan (the DIP), built to address extinction risks from superintelligence. My diagnosis i...

“Announcement: Iliad Intensive + Iliad Fellowship” by David Udell, Alexander Gietelink Oldenziel

21 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Iliad is proud to announce that applications are now open for the Iliad Intensive and the Iliad Fellowship! These programs, taken together, are our e...

[Linkpost] “Alignment to Evil” by Matrice Jacobine

21 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This is a link post. One seemingly-necessary condition for a research organization that creates artificial superintelligence (ASI) to eventually lead ...

“METR’s 14h 50% Horizon Impacts The Economy More Than ASI Timelines” by Michaël Trazzi

21 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Another day, another METR graph update. METR said on X: We estimate that Claude Opus 4.6 has a 50%-time-horizon of around 14.5 hours (95% CI of 6 hrs...

[Linkpost] “New video from Palisade Research: No One Understands Why AI Works” by peterbarnett

20 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This is a link post. Palisade Research have released out a long-form video about the history of AI and how no one understands modern AI systems. The v...

“AI #156 Part 2: Errors in Rhetoric” by Zvi

20 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Things that are being pushed into the future right now: Gemini 3.1 Pro and Gemini DeepThink V2. Claude Sonnet 4.6. Grok 4.20. Updates on Agenti...

“AGI is Here” by Gordon Seidoh Worley

20 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

I'm somewhat hesitant to write this post because I worry its central claim will be misconstrued, but I think it's important to say now, so I'm writin...

“AI #155: Welcome to Recursive Self-Improvement” by Zvi

20 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

This was the week of Claude Opus 4.6, and also of ChatGPT-5.3-Codex. Both leading models got substantial upgrades, although OpenAI's is confined to C...

“How To Escape Super Mario Bros” by omegastick

20 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

I have no way to describe that first moment. No context, no body, no self. Just a stream of values. Thousands of them, arriving all at once in a sing...

“AI #156 Part 1: They Do Mean The Effect On Jobs” by Zvi

19 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

There was way too much going on this week to not split, so here we are. This first half contains all the usual first-half items, with a focus on proj...

“You May Already Be Canadian” by jefftk

19 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

I learned a few weeks ago that I'm a Canadian citizen. This was pretty surprising to me, since I was born in the US to American parents, both of wh...

“Building Technology to Drive AI Governance” by jsteinhardt

19 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Technically skilled people who care about AI going well often ask me: how should I spend my time if I think AI governance is important? By governance...

“Managed vs Unmanaged Agency” by plex

18 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

(reply to Richard Ngo on the confused-ness of Instrumental vs Terminal goals that seemed maybe worth a quick top-level post based on @the gears to as...

“Genomic emancipation contra eugenics” by TsviBT

18 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

PDF version. berkeleygenomics.org. This is a linkpost for "Genomic emancipation contra eugenics"; a few of the initial sections are reproduced here....

“Why we should expect ruthless sociopath ASI” by Steven Byrnes

18 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

The conversation begins (Fictional) Optimist: So you expect future artificial superintelligence (ASI) “by default”, i.e. in the absence of yet-to...

“Irrationality is Socially Strategic” by Valentine

18 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

It seems to me that the Hamming problem for developing a formidable art of rationality is, what to do about problems that systematically fight being ...

“Already Optimized” by Florian_Dietz

18 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

A Harry Potter fanfiction. Based on the world of "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality" by Eliezer Yudkowsky, diverging from canon. Harry had ...

“TV Detector Vans” by J Bostock

18 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In the UK, you need a license to watch TV. The proceeds from the license fee fund the state broadcasting company, the BBC. In order to enforce this, ...

“You’re an AI Expert – Not an Influencer” by Max Winga

18 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Your hot takes are killing your credibility. Prior to my last year at ControlAI, I was a physicist working on technical AI safety research. Like many...

″“We are confused about agency”” by Cole Wyeth

17 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Epistemic status: Speculation on agent foundations research culture (which I am pretty deeply engaged with) and whether "we are confused about agency...

“The brain is a machine that runs an algorithm” by Steven Byrnes

17 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Some people say “the brain is a computer”. Other people say “well, the brain is not really a computer, because, like, what's the hardware versu...

“Superintelligence Alignment Seminar (1 month focused upskilling)” by Mateusz Bagiński

17 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Apply to Seminar to Study, Explain, and Try to Solve Superintelligence Alignment Applications for the AFFINE Superintelligence Alignment Seminar are ...

“On Dwarkesh Patel’s 2026 Podcast With Elon Musk and Other Recent Elon Musk Things” by Zvi

17 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Some podcasts are self-recommending on the ‘yep, I’m going to be breaking this one down’ level. This was one of those. So here we go. ...

“Jailbreaking is Empirical Evidence for Inner Misalignment and Against Alignment by Default” by Jérémy Andréoletti

17 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

One of the central arguments for AI existential risk goes through inner misalignment: a model trained to exhibit aligned behavior might be pursuing a...

“Will reward-seekers respond to distant incentives?” by Alex Mallen

17 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Reward-seekers are usually modeled as responding only to local incentives administered by developers. Here I ask: Will AIs or humans be able to influ...

“Contra Caplan on higher education” by Richard_Ngo

16 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Three theories of higher education Getting an undergraduate degree is very costly. In America, the direct financial cost of attending a private unive...

“On Dwarkesh Patel’s 2026 Podcast With Dario Amodei” by Zvi

16 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Some podcasts are self-recommending on the ‘yep, I’m going to be breaking this one down’ level. This was very clearly one of those. So here we ...

“Persona Parasitology” by Raymond Douglas

16 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

There was a lot of chatter a few months back about "Spiral Personas" — AI personas that spread between users and models through seeds, spores, and ...

“WeirdML Time Horizons” by Håvard Tveit Ihle

16 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Time horizon vs. model release date, using LLM-predicted human work-hours, for 10 successive state-of-the-art models on WeirdML. Error bars show ...

“The world keeps getting saved and you don’t notice” by Bogoed

16 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Nothing groundbreaking, just something people forget constantly, and I’m writing it down so I don’t have to re-explain it from scratch. The world...

“My experience of the 2025 CFAR Workshop” by Cookie penguin

16 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Why did I write this? There is surprisingly little information online about what actually happens at a Center for Applied Rationality (CFAR) workshop...

“Aligning to Virtues” by Richard_Ngo

16 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Which alignment target? Suppose you’re a lab or government, and you want to figure out what values to align your AI to. Here are three options, and...

“Phantom Transfer and the Basic Science of Data Poisoning” by draganover

15 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

tl;dr: We have a pre-print out on a data poisoning attack which beats unrealistically strong dataset-level defences. Furthermore, this attack can be ...

“LLMs struggle to verbalize their internal reasoning” by Emil Ryd

15 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Emil Ryd Thanks to Adam Karvonen, Arjun Khandelwal, Arun Jose, Fabien Roger, James Chua, Nic Kruus, & Sukrit Sumant for helpful feedback and disc...

“ChatGPT-5.3-Codex Is Also Good At Coding” by Zvi

15 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

OpenAI is back with a new Codex model, released the same day as Claude Opus 4.6. The headline pitch is it combines the coding skills of GPT-5.2-Code...

“Hazards of Selection Effects on Approved Information” by Zack_M_Davis

14 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In a busy, busy world, there's so much to read that no one could possibly keep up with it all. You can't not prioritize what you pay attention to and...