Aaron Smith-Levin is a former Scientologist, Vice President of the Aftermath Foundation, and host of the Growing Up In Scientology YouTube channel. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Green Chef: https://greenchef.com/lex60 and use code lex60 to get 60% off plus free shipping - InsideTracker: https://insidetracker.com/lex to get 20% off - Athletic Greens: https://athleticgreens.com/lex to get 1 month of fish oil EPISODE LINKS: Aaron's YouTube: https://youtube.com/@GrowingUpInScientology Aaron's Twitter: https://twitter.com/GrowingupinSCN The Aftermath Foundation: https://theaftermathfoundation.org SP Shop: https://thespshop.com Books mentioned: 1. A Billion Years: https://amzn.to/3EpLiMM 2. Blown for Good: https://amzn.to/3IqaZxN PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (06:00) - Thetans (09:59) - Dianetics (22:02) - God (32:38) - Sea Org (36:48) - Auditing (57:01) - Control (1:07:25) - David Miscavige (1:16:32) - Xenu (1:32:26) - Secrecy (1:38:29) - Mike Rinder (1:45:36) - Separation of families (1:52:30) - Tom Cruise (1:56:23) - Sin (2:01:19) - Corruption
Chapter 1: What is the background of Aaron Smith-Levin?
The following is a conversation with Aaron Smith-Levin, a former Scientologist raised in Scientology and have worked in the organization full-time for many years as a staff member and a Sea Org member, including the job of training Scientology auditors. Today, he educates the public about Scientology on his YouTube channel called Growing Up in Scientology.
And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got Green Chef for delicious and healthy, easy to make meals. Inside Tracker for bio monitoring and Athletic Greens for gut health. Choose wisely, my friends. Also, if you want to work on our amazing team, we're always hiring. Go to lexfriedman.com slash hiring.
And now onto the full ad reads. As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make these interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. This episode is brought to you by Green Chef, a California certified organics farmer company that makes it easy to eat well with meal plans for every lifestyle.
They have a number of one-meal kits for eating well with options for keto, vegan, vegetarian, fast and fit, Mediterranean, and gluten-free. Of course, you know which one I pick. I'm still on keto. I'm still on carnivore. I jump around. I'm not religiously in one particular diet, but I just feel much better when the number of carbs I consume is very low.
And I should also say that I don't do cheap meals, which I think is a popular notion that a bunch of people follow.
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Chapter 2: What is the significance of the sponsors mentioned?
It just doesn't work for me. I enjoy life so much more when I... you sort of cheat by having just a tiny bit of carbs, not like just pig out completely. So I guess cheat by like a quick little detour, a quick little glance, not a full-on affair, if you know what I'm saying. Anyway, the keto, it's ridiculous, but the keto meals from Green Chef is really, that's my go-to. It's delicious.
I really highly recommend it. Also, Gives variety to my intake, which makes me feel like I'm enjoying life even more than I already have been. Anyway, go to greenchef.com slash Lex60 and use code Lex60 to get 60% off plus free shipping. That's greenchef.com slash Lex60 and use code Lex60 for 60% off plus free shipping.
This show is also brought to you by Insight Tracker, a service I use to track the data that comes from the biological system that some refer to as Lex Friedman. But I'm just a collection of cells. I'm a... Underneath that, a collection of atoms. I'm a collection of a lot of things, billions, trillions. And somehow they're all like in this one bag that move together.
This meat vehicle that operates with other meat vehicles in meat space and does interesting things and is worried and is hopeful and is ecstatic sometimes, sometimes is afraid. And at the end of the day, the ride ends too quickly for that meat bag that moves. I guess others call Lex, but I don't even know what I call myself in my own head. How am I even talking to you right now? What is this?
A bunch of cells, neurons are firing, creating a thought, creating an experience of a thought, allowing me in a meta way, to discuss the experience of a thought, and here we are. And I'm speaking in a technology built by humans, alone in a room, but you, another human, are now listening to this. What is this?
Anyway, if you want to get a little data on this giant mystery, this beautiful mystery that is the biology of our human body, you should use InsideTracker. And you can get special savings for a limited time. And you go to InsideTracker.com slash Lex.
This show is also brought to you by Athletic Greens and its AG1 drink, which is an all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance. I take it twice a day. I take it after a run, a long run in the now warm Texas weather, slowly getting ready for that Texas heat. I mean, I love those long runs along the river.
Anywhere I go, just long runs, alone with my thoughts, whether I'm listening to brown noise or an audio book. that just takes me away. Takes me away for an hour or two or three, depending on how long the run is. It's just I'm in a different world. And when I come back, come back into this world, the first entry point is an Athletic Greens drink.
Sometimes I'll put it in the fridge and then take a quick shower and drink it cold. It's delicious either way. Warm, cold, doesn't matter. Just put a little powder with some water. It's magic. And I also, when I travel, I take it. It gives me that feeling that I've gotten my life in order, at least for the nutritional stuff.
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Chapter 3: What are the core beliefs of Scientology?
You know, believing in past lives isn't particularly unique or special. Right. Right. The fact that Scientology does this little dance of pretending to believe in a God, I mean, it's even like a PR line. Scientology representatives will tell you you can be a Christian and be a Scientologist. Well, let me tell you what.
Christians don't believe in past lives and lives on other galaxies and planets and universes. And Scientology knows that. Scientology knows you can't be a Christian and be a Scientologist, but they will say that.
Chapter 4: How does Scientology define thetans and their role?
It's just an example of sort of the fundamental baked-in dishonesty.
Because it's so important to Scientology on the organization level to have tax-exempt status, I wonder, do you know the process of what it takes to prove that an organization is a religion?
While going through that process with the IRS, for the second time, by the way, Scientology actually had tax exemption in the early days, and the IRS pulled it, and then they got it back in 1993. While going through that process again, the IRS actually took issue with the fact that Scientology was claiming you could be a Scientologist. and a member of another religion.
The IRS actually said, pump the brakes there. If you're going to say that, we're going to say you're not a religion. And they actually put in writing to the IRS, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what we meant. That's not what we meant. We meant in the beginning, you can be both, but eventually you just have to be a Scientologist.
So you mentioned the eight dynamics, but you also mentioned survival. So that seems to be a core principle that... that human existence is about survival. Can you elaborate what is meant by survival? Are we talking about the survival of the human species, survival of the individual humans, survival of the manifestation of thetans in human form? What's survival?
So it would be all of that because survival is the dominant force across all the dynamics. That, I mean, L. Ron Hubbard, it was either Dianetics or Science of Survival. He says he discovered the principle upon which all life exists. And that is all life, no matter what it is trying to do. Are you ready, Lex? It's trying to survive.
That's pretty powerful. That's pretty powerful. Is it? No, I got to tell you. You might get me back in, Lex. No, I'm not trying to get you back in. I'm trying to get you to take seriously the power of the ideas behind Scientology because I think those ideas are not bad ideas.
They resonate with a lot of ideas throughout philosophy, throughout religions, throughout the history of human civilization. The interesting aspect is how it goes wrong.
But here's the thing, Lex. Here's the thing. It is consistent with prior efforts or studies. It's just that L. Ron Hubbard said this was a watershed breakthrough that was being discovered for the first time. That's kind of what I'm mocking, really.
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Chapter 5: What role did David Miscavige play in Scientology's hierarchy?
So there's one organization that existed to essentially serve Hubbard directly. And to represent his interests. And that was called the Commodore. He was the Commodore of the Sea Organization. The Commodore's Messenger's Organization. We're going to call it the CMO. Miscavige started working for the CMO pretty early on in his Sea Org career. By the way, as did Mike Rinder. Mini Mike. Okay.
And so he just became known as a doer. Like a guy who'll get it done.
Chapter 6: How did L. Ron Hubbard's seclusion affect Scientology's leadership?
No excuses. No stops. You know, get it done. So he had made a name for himself in the CMO. around the time, by the time Hubbard went off into seclusion. Now, when he went off into seclusion, he took two other CMO, or I'm gonna call them messengers, right? Commodore's messengers. He took two other messengers with him, Pat and Annie Broker.
Now, it has been said by people, Mike, Mike Rinder has told me, he goes, the reason Pat and Annie went off with LRH isn't necessarily because he desperately wanted them to, but partly because we could afford to let them go. We didn't necessarily need them. And between the two of them, Annie was the one who was like a really compassionate person, intelligent person, caring person.
Was there a possible trajectory of this world where she was the one that took over?
Yes, in fact, Pat and Annie Broecker were the two people that were supposed to take over, okay? But because Pat and Annie were with Hubbard in seclusion, Miscavige basically had the complete run of the operation without any oversight from Hubbard. The only way any information would get from Scientology World to Hubbard is Miscavige and Pat Broecker would meet at a confidential location
Chapter 7: What are the implications of disconnection in Scientology?
And Miscavige would give Broker any information he wanted to go to LRH. So if Miscavige wanted to get rid of somebody, all he had to do was feed LRH false information that this person had been caught doing something treasonous. And then he would get in response some order from L. Ron Hubbard to get rid of this person.
Are there so many similarities between various communist regimes and fascist regimes?
Well, Hitler did the same thing when he became the supreme leader. He had to take power. Yeah, he had to wait for the president to die. But the whole time, there's a control and information and a slow aggregation of power. Of course, with nations, it's different because if you control the military, you control a lot. So you have to also get the generals on your side and so on.
But I'm sure in this situation, there is... similar kind of dynamics. You have to get certain people on your side, control the flow of information, let the original founder, the original leader die off. Yeah. And make sure that you are the one that's left with the power. Right.
So whereas Pat and Annie are off with LRH, all of Scientology's attorneys and accountants and lobbyists and whatever, they all know Dave. Dave's the one they deal with. So, you know, LRH passes away. Pat and Annie make this appearance. Nobody knows Pat and Annie. Everybody knows Dave. And so he ended up getting rid of Pat and Annie.
This is a very short, perhaps slightly bastardized version of it, of Miscavige, basically. They had been ushering just suitcases of cash
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Chapter 8: How does Scientology's belief system influence personal relationships?
to L. Ron Hubbard during this time. So you have Miscavige handing boatloads of cash to Pat Broecker. Pat would do crazy things like hide the money in the walls of houses and dig pits and everything. So Miscavige basically threatened to turn Pat Broecker over to the IRS for tax evasion. That's part, Pat Broker's still alive. Is he a Scientologist or no?
No, he basically went away and kept his mouth shut. She died a handful of years ago. She stayed a loyal Sea Org member until the very end. But literally, Miscavige put her on menial tasks. She had no authority whatsoever. She was just put on menial tasks. Washing dishes, but not really. Groundskeeper. Just stupid low-level assistant, paper pusher stuff.
She never operated with any actual authority, even though she was supposed to be the one to take over her and Pat.
So on David Miscavige... Difficult question, but can you make both the case that he is a good man who's misunderstood and the case that he's not a good man? First of all, I believe that Miscavige is a true believer in Scientology. I do believe that. That's a really important question.
Do you think he believes in all the thetans and all of that? He definitely believes in that. I think he believes in Scientology, but in a different way than all other Scientologists, because he's aware of a lot more information, damaging information about L. Ron Hubbard and the true story of Scientology than most people. So his version of belief is different. I'll give you one example here.
So Scientology's bridge to total freedom goes up to what they call OT8, operating thing in level eight, okay? Scientologists have all been told that L. Ron Hubbard, before he passed, finished, completed, putting together OT 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15. It's just sitting in the vault waiting to be released.
This is part of the Scientology belief system because remember I said growing up Scientology's bridge to total freedom is how you're supposed to get back to your native godlike state. While all the Scientologists in the world who've already done OT 8 know that they haven't gotten there, but they still believe in Scientology because they're told there's more. But wait, there's more.
Miscavige knows there is no more. So Miscavige knows the fundamental promise of being able to achieve full operating thetan is a lie. He knows L. Ron Hubbard didn't accomplish that. So therefore, no one else is going to accomplish it as well. If L. Ron Hubbard had accomplished it, Miscavige knows, well, he didn't write it up. He didn't leave instructions for how anyone else would accomplish it.
So no matter what, Miscavige knows That the fundamental promise that what Scientology is saying they will be able to deliver to mankind is a lie. Now, it's going to sound like I'm contradicting myself because it sounds like I'm saying, well, he knows it's bullshit. I think he believes that L. Ron Hubbard just failed to finish his work.
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