Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Good afternoon, you are very welcome to Liveline 51551, the number for your text, email on liveline.rte.ie or as always give me a call on 0818 715 815. The ambulance strike ongoing. Around the country, SIP2 and Unite members engaged in this dispute over pay for paramedics with 2,000 workers in all. The Irish Association of Emergency Medicine say it poses a significant risk to people's lives.
The trade unions deny anybody is at risk. Maeve is on the line. Maeve, do you support those on strike?
Absolutely, I do. 100%.
Why?
Well, 10 years ago in March, just gone by, I was in a severe road traffic collision. It was a fatal collision, claimed the life of one gentleman. And I and my daughter were in the crash. I had severe catastrophic injuries. I have shattered my right leg, which now has a pin from hip to ankle. I fractured the left leg at the knee joint. I fractured my back, broke my neck.
I broke my ribs, punctured my lung, and I had a traumatic brain injury. And literally, as you can imagine, my daughter also had severe injuries. If it was not for a quick response of the National Ambulance Service at the time, the advanced paramedics and the advanced clinical protocols that they implement on scene, I would not be here on this phone call with you.
Were you conscious after the accident or were you filled in afterwards, Maeve, as to what happened?
My daughter actually filled me in on what happened. I remember the lead up to it. I remember knowing that I was going to be in a head-on collision. I woke up a week later in ICU. I was in critical care in Tullamore Hospital. And even after I was briefed, my daughter told me that, you know, ma'am, you were dead. You were lying across the steering wheel. Your eyes were open.
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Chapter 2: What are the reasons behind the ongoing ambulance strike?
And the decisions that they had to make for me on the night, I mean, as you know, any paramedic that goes out to, whether it's a home or a road, no matter where they're called to, they have to make critical decisions, whether it's cardiac, stroke. It doesn't matter what the ailment is, but they have to make decisions based on their training. And I think what's going on at the minute that...
You know, with this picketing, and I'm here on a picket line in Athlone, I'm actually doing this interview from the back of an ambulance, which I am finding extremely difficult because I have severe PTSD. But for me, it's worth it because I think the changes in paramedics and advanced paramedics, their responsibilities and the workloads that they have, it does not reflect their rate of pay.
So this is the kernel of their dispute is that they've essentially had to upskill to such a degree that they are deserving of more pay, that there were recommendations that they would be paid more and it hasn't been forthcoming. The HSE say there was an offer but It was the terms attached to it seemed to be what's disputed and whether they were fair.
We might get into that because I know there are some actual members of the union who are on strike as well who want to speak to us and have been getting in touch. But what prompted you to go down there? Why did you decide to take part yourself in this picket?
The reason I have decided, and let me tell you, I'm the only one here from the public, which I find very disheartening because there's a lot more than me had a life saved over the years with these gentlemen and ladies, you know. And the reason I did it is they're like a mini hospital.
I mean, some of these paramedics and advanced paramedics are trained to administer drugs that can be given in an A&E facility. to keep people alive. I mean, last year alone, there was 22,000 calls were managed on scene or, you know, wherever the calls went out to. And there are protocols to keep these people out of A&Es, which they did do.
So can you imagine last year alone if we had an extra 22,000 people on trolleys around the country? I mean, they're understaffed as it is. You know, their resources are at their limits. These are people that are so highly trained with degrees and, you know, masters, and their pay does not reflect their education.
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Chapter 3: How did Maeve's personal experience influence her support for the strike?
I mean, that's like putting somebody into a job on the minimum wage and they climb in the ranks with their education and get into the, you know, upscale everything. And they're still been given the minimum wage. I mean, it's very, very unfair that they've been treated unfairly. I believe they've been treated unfairly. I mean, for anybody, it's not even, it's what they face.
So when they get a call from dispatch, say the night of my crash, and I can only speak of that, they'll get a call that there was a crash and that there was numerous people in the crash and the crash looked bad. And that's from a member of the public, say, ringing in 999. The ambulance crew have no idea what they're facing until they get to the scene of a collision.
Like mine that night, it was horrendous. There was a fatality. Do you know what I'm saying? Whereas hospitals are very well briefed by the medical profession in the ambulance service to what they're bringing to A&E, what to expect, what they think the patient needs. I mean, I think they need a little bit more recognition than what they're getting.
And that's coming from somebody whose life depended on them.
And what do you make then? Maeve, given you're at the picket today, I said the warning. I mentioned the Irish Association for the Emergency Medical Association who said it would put patients' lives at risk and the Irish Patients Association who said, you know, there's legitimate patient safety concerns now and they shouldn't be used as pawns in an industrial dispute.
Well, I wouldn't say they're being used as pawns. I mean, there has to be a stage where they have to take a stand. From my understanding, is there 46% of the National Ambulance Service still working today, going to critical care calls, you know, time critical calls out there? I mean, to me, they have to take a stand somehow. And if this is their only way of being heard, well, so be it.
And maybe through this, that they will understand how critical their work is in our community right across the nation.
Let me bring in Matt Reid, who's been listening as well and got in touch with us. Matt, do you support the industrial action today?
I don't support the industrial action today as it is being taken. I am at the border of industrial action with the views in the right context and used to good effect. My background, my first career was as a medic. I was a sick bay attendant in the Irish Naval Service. I worked closely with our colleagues in the Army Medical Corps.
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Chapter 4: What critical decisions do paramedics face during emergencies?
What then, Mark, do you say to those warnings we've had today from, you know, the Irish Association for Emergency Medicine and the Patients Association, that there will be a risk to patients because of the industrial action?
There's several paramedics on strike down in Arklow, and I was talking to them. They have an active ambulance. The active ambulance went out, and the strike ambulances are available for what's called echo calls, so serious calls, cardiac arrests, that sort of thing.
So I think they'll minimise it as much as they can, but this is to protect the service going forward, to continue to have a brilliant service and have brilliant staff. We need to look after them. And if they don't get paid well, don't get T's and C's, they get moralised, they leave. So I think long term it's protecting us. And there's also capacity in other services, you know, in our practice.
Short term pay and long term gain is not going to be much solace to somebody waiting on an ambulance and it not arriving today.
No, I completely agree. And I really feel for those patients. and I think delays are inevitable but I think the future of the ambulance service is probably at stake and the really good clinicians who do really good stuff just need to be supported. We all need to get behind them. I'm really surprised it got this far.
I thought it would be called off by now and hopefully today will be the end of it but the guys really have my support and I think all healthcare workers and indeed the community should stand behind them.
What do you make of Matt's suggestion, and Matt has a professional background in this area, but here and in the UK, that the preferred option, the better option is a type of action that impacts admin and hospital management and the management of the ambulance service and the HSE rather than patients?
Yeah, like I'm not privy to what's happened behind the scenes here. I know they did work to rule yesterday and I think something similar happened and that they didn't fill out paperwork. But it's obviously been going on for some time. It's escalated to this stage. I'm sure they've tried everything they could until they got to this stage. You know, it's not ideal.
It's really harsh on people who need an ambulance and might not get one in a timely manner. But as you said, you know, strikes, unfortunately, kind of have to be disruptive. We striked as doctors in, I think it was 2009, and it was miserable being on the picket line.
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Chapter 5: How does the public perceive the impact of the ambulance strike?
No, no, I'm sitting... It's Mark.
I was hoping to come in.
Sorry, Mark. Sorry, Mark. My apologies. Mark?
I think, you know, it's kind of the carrot and the stick approach. These are really, really highly skilled people. They are in demand all over the world. If we don't treat them well... they're, you know, not going to hang around. So I don't think forcing people to kind of toe the line is what you should do. I think we should realise that these are really highly skilled.
Their skill levels have increased so much in the kind of time I've been involved. And I don't think the stick approach is the way to do it. I don't think forcing people and telling them how they have to work. I think we need to recognise their qualifications with Ts and Cs. And I think that's a better approach to kind of
make sure the service going forward is the service we want in our communities. In Arklow, we're about an hour and 20 minutes from hospital, probably. Now, that's a significant time, you know, in traffic to get to a hospital. So I want the best advanced paramedics and paramedics in my community. I want them to be paid, I want them to be rested, and I want them to be appreciated.
Frank?
Yes, I'm not disagreeing exactly anything that you said, but as an essential service, is a right for half of them to go on strike. Like you said, as an hour and a half, and we all see what goes on in the Midwest of the country. And it is an essential service. So many people are going to be disrupted today, and lives are going to be...
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Chapter 6: What are the arguments for and against the strike action taken by paramedics?
in jeopardy because of the strike that they're going to have. That's just my opinion. I'm not saying I'm 100% right.
The alternative is you force them to continue to work, like you say, and then they say that this isn't working for their work-life balance, they can't pay their mortgage, whatever, and then they just leave, and then we have no essential services.
Well, I think that's very wrong to put it in that context, to say that, you know, we all have bills to pay, we all have mortgages to pay and this, that and the other, but them as an essential service.
But Frank, sorry, because the point I was going to make when Mark Jim did was that it's true the Defence Forces are not allowed to engage in industrial action, but, you know, we have a recruitment and retention crisis, but we have a recruitment and retention crisis in the Defence Forces because soldiers are paid such pittance.
You know, I mean, it's actually a cautionary tale against applying the same logic to the ambulance service, isn't it?
What I'm saying is that in essential service, I'm more sorry to the ambulance than anyone.
No, I know, but my point is that the consequence of recognising the Defence Force as an essential service so they can't engage in industrial action is that the state gets away with paying soldiers way below the rate they should be paid. And we've got a retention and recruitment crisis that if you were to turn around to the ambulance service and say, right, we're going to treat you the same way.
Sure, it's in the state's interest then, financial interest to say, well, those lads can't go on strike, so don't bother listening to their pay demands.
No, I'm not saying that, but there should be a better mechanism in place where if they have all the qualifications they have through degrees and diplomas and master's degrees in medicine and so forth, they should be remunerated as nurses are and so forth.
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Chapter 7: How do the union representatives view the current negotiations?
And, you know, and you know as well as I do, as well as I care to speak to you, that the government will fold and the Department of Health will fold and they will pay them in any way. So why not get the health go and pay them and be done with it instead of letting them go. That's right. We all know that that's going to happen. Would you not agree?
I'm sure lots of those in the picket line, they might have disagreed with things you said up until now. They'll agree with that sentiment anyway.
And it will fall, there's no doubt. We all know that.
Siobhan is on the line as well. Siobhan, have you had cause to call an ambulance?
On April the 30th, Thursday morning, 7.15 in the morning, I woke with what I thought was indigestion. And I went down to the kitchen, was able to walk down, took some bicarbonate of soda, went back up to bed for 20 minutes. The pain wasn't getting any better. And I thought to myself, I wonder, is this a heart attack?
So I hopped in the shower and washed myself and got dressed and put on the lippy. And I ran care doc. And they had too many calls waiting, so I hung up. And this is about an hour later now from waking up at 7.15. And I rang the ambulance and I just said straight away, I've had this pain for an hour, described it. They just said, don't talk. They said, open the front door.
If you have any animals, put the animals in a separate room. And within 10 minutes, the ambulance crew were there. I was brought up to resuscitation area. And I was told within two hours that it was a heart attack.
Wow. So... Sorry, Siobhan, this is only, like, when you say April 30th, last Thursday week, this year.
Yeah, well, last was... See, I'm spaced out now. Last Thursday, I was let out this Wednesday. I was in the hospital for six days. And I have so much praise and I wouldn't hear one bad word. I was put up in Wexford Hospital. I can literally see Wexford Hospital from where I live. The ambulance crew were fantastic. They were there within 10 minutes.
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Chapter 8: What are the implications of the strike for patient safety?
Why? Why?
Why? Because for six years they have now been waiting for a settlement in their rate of pay and terms and conditions of employment. They save lives every single day.
Lucy, I'm going to cut across you. Your line gave up on us there a little bit, but at an opportune time because we have to take our own little break. So back in a moment. I wouldn't have cut short Mark and Andy's debate for anything, but Stephen McGuinness is after getting in touch and he is in an ambulance en route to an accident. Is that right, Stephen?
Yes, an emergency. I'm a step-two shop steward in Arklow in County Wiglow.
We lost you there, Stephen. Can you hear me?
I can hear you.
Oh yeah, perfect. We just lost you there. So you said your shop, Stuart, would slip to your base in Arklow in County Wicklow and then we lost you.
Yes, I'm an advanced paramedic in Arklow in County Wicklow. I was on the picket line this morning from early. It was my turn to step up and provide the contingency cover at 2pm and within minutes. We were dispatched from Arklow. We're currently en route to Carlow, 91 kilometres away.
And on any given day, an Arklow ambulance could end up going to Carlow to do this call, which is coincidentally bringing us back into Dublin because it's a maternity call and the patient in question is going to a Dublin maternity hospital, which isn't unheard of. So today we are travelling that distance, but yesterday we probably would have travelled that distance yesterday
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