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Marketplace All-in-One

Understanding the “cruel math of unemployment”

20 Feb 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What is the cruel math of unemployment?

1.634 - 22.753 David Brancaccio

The cruel math of unemployment is not about too few working, it's about too many. I'm David Brancaccio in Los Angeles. Good morning to you. First, we'll get a key measure of inflation this morning, the one preferred by the guardians of interest rates at the Federal Reserve. This is the one with the clumsy name, the Personal Consumption Expenditures Price Index.

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22.773 - 31 David Brancaccio

It'll be for December, and it's out in about an hour and a half. President Trump talked about prices yesterday in Georgia. Marketplace's Nancy Marshall-Genzer has more.

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31.3 - 36.024 Nancy Marshall-Genzer

President Trump pointed to lower prices for things like gas to make this claim yesterday.

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36.084 - 44.662 Unknown

What word have you not heard over the last two weeks? affordability, because I've won. I've won affordability.

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45.103 - 62.067 Nancy Marshall-Genzer

The cost of used cars is also down. President Trump is expected to continue talking about lower prices and affordability in his State of the Union speech this Tuesday. But inflation is still above the Federal Reserve's 2 percent target, and consumers feel the pinch, especially at the grocery store.

Chapter 2: How does unemployment serve as a solution in the economic system?

62.047 - 82.152 Nancy Marshall-Genzer

A left-leaning think tank, the Center for American Progress, has unveiled a plan for price caps. It was written by former Biden administration economist Jared Bernstein. The proposal would freeze the price of more than 20 different foods for at least two years, including staples like meat, milk, cheese, and butter. The cap program would be voluntary.

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82.432 - 91.463 Nancy Marshall-Genzer

The plan would offer breaks on credit card swipe fees as an incentive for stores to participate. I'm Nancy Marshall-Genzer for Marketplace.

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108.706 - 127.683 David Brancaccio

Question. Is unemployment able to work but unable to find work a liability or an asset? It's not an asset to the worker in search of livelihood, of course, but mainstream economics acknowledges that some joblessness helps to keep prices down and from the corporate point of view. It helps to keep profits up.

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127.703 - 149.344 David Brancaccio

It's one of the reasons that to most economists, ideal unemployment is not zero unemployment. This is one of the critiques of the economic system we live in. Clara Mattei teaches economics at the University of Tulsa. Her new book is called Escape from Capitalism and Intervention, where she calls some of this the, quote, cruel math of unemployment. Dr. Mattei, welcome.

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Chapter 3: What role does inflation play in the discussion of unemployment?

149.324 - 152.568 David Brancaccio

Thank you so much, David, for having me. What's the cruel math?

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152.908 - 159.335 Clara Mattei

The cruel math is that unemployment is not a problem for our system, but it's actually a solution for it.

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159.856 - 176.395 David Brancaccio

It's not a bug. It's weirdly a feature. It's like the standard math of economics in our market system insists that unlike eating Reese's peanut butter cups, there can be too much employment. Businesses and regular economists get nervous if, what, too many of us have jobs?

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176.729 - 194.586 Clara Mattei

Us having jobs means that the bargaining power of workers goes up and workers can be empowered to actually start problematizing why they have to go work for a wage that is so low and might start mobilizing for a different socioeconomic system, which is very bad for a capitalist economy.

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194.87 - 213.857 David Brancaccio

We just had this big natural experiment in some of this when we were coming out of the COVID pandemic. The unemployment rate got really low and employees or potential employees could say, hey, you want to hire me? You got to pay me more. The way we reported this was that that sparked a lot of destructive inflation. You're saying what?

214.658 - 222.109 David Brancaccio

If you have to pay employees more because a lot of people are employed, why couldn't that come out of shareholder profits, not necessarily putting it into prices?

222.443 - 229.454 Clara Mattei

In 2023, when unemployment was 3.4%, all the technocrats running central banks were freaking out.

Chapter 4: How did the COVID-19 pandemic impact employment and wages?

230.115 - 245.599 Clara Mattei

And they were able, by increasing interest rates, to increase the unemployment rate to much higher. And this is the point, is that increases in interest rates, which is fundamental austerity policies, don't necessarily work to actually cure inflation.

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245.579 - 261.833 Clara Mattei

But what they do work for is to cure the rate of exploitation because, in fact, by dropping wages because of higher unemployment, there is more profit share over wage share, meaning that more value is extracted from workers.

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261.965 - 290.824 David Brancaccio

Let's talk about the world we live in now in the United States. It isn't really these technocrats who are in full power. The current powers that be are led by President Trump, who's working very hard to stop immigration. That lowers the ranks of the unemployed and does, in fact, do what I think you want to have happen, which is, in part, a move to raise compensation in America.

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290.973 - 317.736 Clara Mattei

The scramble for resources is not between the peanuts that those at the bottom get, but it's really the very, very, very rich people who not only accumulate millions a day, they also don't pay taxes because we know that capital, so long as it's invested, is not taxed. Capital gains are really taxed to very low levels. Corporate tax rates are constantly going down. This is part of austerity.

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317.996 - 335.661 Clara Mattei

So the problem here is really at the top, not at the bottom. So the idea that people will do better if we kick out the immigrants is just a way to fool people in thinking that the problem are not those who benefit from a system that is based on war, suffering, and exploitation.

335.86 - 346.432 David Brancaccio

The new book is called Escape from Capitalism and Intervention. Economics professor Clara Maté is also founder of a grassroots organization called Forum for Real Economic Emancipation, or FREE.

Chapter 5: What are the implications of austerity policies on unemployment?

346.953 - 347.595 David Brancaccio

Professor, thank you.

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348.157 - 350.123 Clara Mattei

Thank you so much for having me, David.

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350.288 - 369.433 David Brancaccio

And this old house radio hour and Marketplace here work together on a one-hour special called Building Tomorrow, where we explore what a house for the next hundred years might look like, given disasters like hurricanes, tornadoes, wildfires, and more, given the affordability crisis in housing, given our evolving needs for how we want to live.

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369.793 - 381.898 David Brancaccio

There's another chance to catch this program this weekend. We're putting it in the Marketplace Morning Report podcast feed. You know where to find podcasts. In Los Angeles, I'm David Brancaccio. We're from APM, American Public Media.

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