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Marketplace All-in-One

Why higher productivity doesn't equal wage growth

02 Feb 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What impact does the government shutdown have on economic data?

2.039 - 35.146 Kai Risdahl

Remember what happened to economic data the last time the government shut down? Yeah, that again. From American Public Media, this is Marketplace. In Los Angeles, I'm Kai Risdahl. It is Monday today. This one is the 2nd of February. If you can believe that, it is good as always to have you along, everybody. We're going to give you the bureaucratic language first.

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35.486 - 52.903 Kai Risdahl

Then we're going to do our best to tell you what it's going to mean. Due to the partial federal government shutdown, read the email that Marketplace's Carla Javier got from the Bureau of Labor Statistics this morning, the BLS will suspend data collection, processing, and dissemination, end of quote.

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52.883 - 69.426 Kai Risdahl

Sadly, for those of us whose job it is to know what is going on in this economy, especially at this low hire, low fire moment, what's going on in the labor market, that means we are not going to get the December job openings and labor turnover survey that was supposed to come out tomorrow. Jolts is what we call that.

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70.147 - 87.171 Kai Risdahl

And also probably we're not going to get the biggie, the January unemployment report that was due on Friday. All of that said, though, and on the theory that we're going to get the data tomorrow, Eventually, Carla made some calls to see what people are going to be looking for whenever.

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87.191 - 99.644 Carla Javier

Not only will these data show what's been going on in the job market recently, they'll also update the understanding of the past year through a process called benchmark revisions, says Daniel Zhao at the job site Glassdoor.

100.125 - 109.755 Jennifer Burns

We might get a very different picture of 2025 in hindsight, where the job market was actually much slower than we originally thought and thus much closer to stall speed.

110.005 - 114.593 Carla Javier

Whenever these jobs numbers are released, he'll be looking closely at health care.

114.613 - 125.112 Jennifer Burns

It's been the pillar of jobs growth over the last year or two years. And so any slowdown we see in the health care industry is concerning.

125.395 - 142.054 Carla Javier

The latest reads showed a labor market that overall is stagnant. Laura Ulrich at the Indeed Hiring Lab says she doesn't see anything in its internal data that makes her think there'll be big swings. I'm expecting to still see hires rates low, quits rates low.

Chapter 2: How is AI related to recent layoffs in various companies?

495.16 - 503.871 Kai Risdahl

One president's thoughts on the importance of Federal Reserve independence, though, are another president's vague guidelines, I guess you could say.

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504.271 - 509.478 Carla Javier

Another example of this was the one that it was the dog that didn't bark. George H.W.

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509.538 - 523.075 Lawrence Schmidt

Bush made quite a show of antagonizing the Fed during the 1988 presidential election and really viewing Alan Greenspan as keeping interest rates too high.

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523.223 - 530.536 Kai Risdahl

In 1991, with the federal funds rate around 7%, President Bush actually called it out in his State of the Union.

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531.057 - 533.722 Unknown

Interest rates should be lower now.

535.746 - 546.345 Carla Javier

It's a dog that didn't bark, though, because who did he nominate when he had his one choice as Fed chair? He re-nominated Alan Greenspan, the person that he seemed to be, you know, most skeptical of.

546.73 - 565.953 Kai Risdahl

That was then. This is now. Today, the Federal Reserve is more important in economic policymaking than it ever was. We've had the Great Recession and COVID, which solidified the Fed's role as the lender of last resort. And now we've got a president who believes and is not afraid to say that he should have a role in setting interest rates.

566.393 - 570.358 Carla Javier

I think it's different in that the pressure campaign is very public.

570.739 - 573.582 Tara Sinclair

I'd love to get the guy currently in there out right now.

Chapter 3: Why does higher productivity not lead to wage growth?

818.683 - 823.99 Lawrence Schmidt

But in many instances, it will change what we are doing rather than eliminate the job entirely.

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824.189 - 847.885 Carla Javier

In the short term, Molly Kinder at Brookings says we are probably overestimating how many jobs are vulnerable to AI. But we're probably underestimating how transformative it will be in the medium to long term. When I look out five to 10 years, I think we're going to be seeing a lot more impact on jobs. And she says we need to be doing more to prepare. I'm Samantha Fields for Marketplace.

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865.87 - 888.551 Kai Risdahl

Coming up... Economists would say that productivity is the elixir for our overall output growth. But does that magic potion have its limits, hmm? First, though, let's do the numbers. Dow Industrials up 515 points on this Monday. That's 1%, 49,407. The Nasdaq rose 130 points, about 0.6%. Finished at 23,592.

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Chapter 4: What factors are contributing to the stagnation of wage growth?

888.571 - 913.68 Kai Risdahl

S&P 500 climbed 37 points, about 0.5%, 69,76. They're Disney. Made a record $10 billion in revenue last quarter, and that's just in its experiences division. Think theme parks and cruises. Ticket sales were indeed up at U.S. parks, but those parks saw fewer international visitors. I wonder why that is. A new chief executive is expected to be announced soon for the entertainment company.

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913.7 - 942.047 Kai Risdahl

If Bob Iger decides, so the Walt Disney Company decides. plummeted 7.4% on the day. Gold and silver prices continued their slide, although not quite as dramatically as Friday. Gold down about 4%. Silver dropped about 6%. Bonds down, yield on the 10-year T-note 4.29%. You're listening to Marketplace. This is Marketplace. I'm Kai Risdahl.

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942.517 - 964.286 Kai Risdahl

The thing about the economy, I'm talking personal, national, and in this specific case, global economies, is that they run on debt, credit, leverage, borrowing money to get things done. The tricky thing about that debt, though, is that it can kind of get away from itself. The more you have and the less you pay down, the more overwhelming it gets. Obvious, perhaps, but critical.

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964.426 - 985.744 Kai Risdahl

Because according to the International Monetary Fund, global public debt... that is debt held by governments, is projected to exceed 100% of global GDP, that is to say the entire global economy, by the end of the decade, the highest that level has been since 1948. So we've gotten Tara Sinclair on the phone to talk things over. She's a professor of economics at George Washington University.

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985.784 - 987.347 Kai Risdahl

Professor Sinclair, welcome back to the program.

988.229 - 989.01 Carla Javier

It's great to be back.

989.243 - 999.085 Kai Risdahl

Let's deal with the facts on the ground as we have them. Global public debt, sovereign debt, is high. It is rising. Is that a bad thing? And if so, why?

999.959 - 1028.768 Carla Javier

Well, so as I'm an economist, I have two hands. And so there's at least two perspectives on this. But let's break it down and kind of zoom in on kind of both the pessimist side as well as the optimist. So from the pessimist side, debt can't rise forever. And so when we see these public debts rising, that's a concern if we don't see a clear pattern of future stabilization.

1028.748 - 1047.465 Carla Javier

But it's also the case that when people are looking at where public debt is today, really the question is, what is that money being spent on? And is it crowding out private sector spending that could otherwise be a better outcome for global society?

Chapter 5: How does global debt affect the economy?

1047.665 - 1063.267 Kai Risdahl

Let me take the second half of that answer then and the crowding out thing. Is it crowding out? And what's the effect of, you know, some guy in Sheboygan trying to, you know, make interest payments on his car or his house or whatever and this rising global public debt?

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1063.287 - 1077.094 Carla Javier

Yeah, well, I think the guy in Sheboygan might be really concerned about this because it may explain some of the rise in interest rates that people have seen and the affordability of various large ticket items where they might be borrowing from banks.

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1077.936 - 1093.213 Carla Javier

And, you know, one way to think about this is just, you know, we've got these two big players, US and China, and they're both looking to borrow heavily and they're competing for that same pool of global savings. And that's going to affect interest rates around the world, even in Sheboygan.

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1093.75 - 1114.292 Kai Risdahl

Even in Sheboygan, lovely town as it is. Is it, do you suppose, too late? And I guess we have to frame this two ways. One is for the United States, which is, you know, obviously the world's biggest economy, but also, you know, we're paying a trillion dollars a year in interest on our debt. So is it too late for the United States to turn things around?

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1114.613 - 1118.577 Kai Risdahl

And then globally, you know, are we at the tipping point of the debt trap here?

1119.485 - 1143.277 Carla Javier

Well, so I think this is where things get a little more interesting because on the one hand, we are facing massive demographic shifts. And that does point to some concerning patterns and a potential tipping point because we're looking at a world where we're going to be trying to support a larger global population of a smaller workforce. And that's going to be difficult to do.

1143.717 - 1153.962 Carla Javier

But on the other hand, we may also be at a point Where, you know, AI and other sources of productivity may help us and may be able to offset that.

1154.785 - 1157.473 Kai Risdahl

No pressure here, but you're doing a whole lot of on the one hand, on the other hand here.

1159.006 - 1172.283 Carla Javier

Yes, the classic economist problem. But I think it's important to really keep in mind that we're looking at a world where we tend to have these really big doomsayers.

Chapter 6: Is rising global public debt a concern for future economies?

1172.363 - 1191.24 Carla Javier

At any moment, we're going to have this giant fiscal crisis. Whereas on the other side, then there are people who are like, oh, okay, it's actually fine if we look at it from the perspective of for example, of global wealth rather than as debt to wealth as compared to debt to GDP, things maybe don't look so bad.

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1191.642 - 1207.879 Kai Risdahl

Let me just pick up on that word you use, crisis. You know, one of the things that has boosted certainly U.S. debt and global debt to some degree in the last decade and a half or so, almost 20 years now since the financial crisis, has been huge government expenditure in times of dire economic crisis.

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1207.999 - 1215.507 Kai Risdahl

And one does imagine that there's a limit to how much a government can do as its debt load piles up, no matter how bad the situation gets.

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1216.432 - 1236.06 Carla Javier

Right. For sure. I mean, I think that's really where we're one of the key concerns that we have is that even if it's not a financial crisis that kicks off our next concern, it may be that we have some other economic shock that hits the economy and then it's followed by another financial crisis.

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1236.04 - 1247.277 Carla Javier

because there's limited room for additional borrowing on the part of governments, may make a follow-on crisis for any other impact on the economy.

1247.999 - 1254.809 Kai Risdahl

Tara Sinclair, she's a professor of economics, also the chair of the department at George Washington University. Professor Sinclair, thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

1255.35 - 1256.091 Carla Javier

Thank you.

1275.173 - 1295.846 Kai Risdahl

Surveying the broad reach of this economy the past couple of years, one of the brightest spots that catches the eye is labor productivity. How much stuff we make and do in each hour that we spend making and doing it. Productivity, in fact, has been growing faster than it has historically, which has plenty of upside. Higher productivity can generate higher profits.

1296.227 - 1310.807 Kai Risdahl

It can help businesses keep prices down and it can let them raise wages. But even though productivity growth has been strong, wage growth has been slowing. What's up with that, you ask? Here's Marketplace's Justin Ho.

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