Chapter 1: What is the significance of listening in effective leadership?
Because if you're present for your team, you don't need an open door policy because they see you.
You know, either you're there for people and they know they can have a direct line with you or you're not. And yeah, I also think it's just not true usually.
Welcome to Mic Unplugged, the number one podcast for self-improvement, leadership, and relentless growth. No fluff, no filters, just hard-hitting truths, unstoppable strategies, and the mindset shifts that separate the best from the rest. Ready to break limits? Let's go. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of McUnplugged.
And today's guest helps leaders speak with clarity when the world feels chaotic. He's coached presidential candidates, Fortune 500 CEOs, and TED speakers. And today, he's here with us. Ladies and gentlemen, please help me in warming and welcoming my friend, Matthew Kohut. Matt, how are you doing today, brother?
Very good, Mick. Thanks so much for having me.
I am the honored one, brother. Been a huge follower of you for a while now. I think we connected virtually back in March. And ever since March, I've been going deep into all things Matt Cohut, man. So one, again, just honored to have you on the show.
Well, likewise. Right back at you.
Good stuff. Well, Matt, you know, on make unplug, the first question I love to ask is about your because. For me, it's that thing that's deeper than your why. It's the burning fuel that makes you deliver when you're supposed to deliver. So if I were to say for you today, Matt, what's your because? Why do you keep doing all the amazing things that you do?
For me, because communication is at the heart of everything that we do as human animals. It's how we get along with our friends, our family, our people we work with, the people who enable us to do the things that inspire us to reach whatever heights we're seeking to climb. And so communication gets me out of bed in the morning.
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Chapter 2: How can leaders balance strength and warmth in communication?
You've helped a ton of influential people along the way. But when did you know that that was a gift that you had?
You know, it emerged for me. I don't want to make it sound like it was just something that I had the same way that a great athlete knows in high school. They've got this thing. I was a writer by training, if you will, first and foremost, and that came pretty naturally. But the thing that really changed that or shifted that for me was when I was graduating
sort of baby speech writer for a couple of different folks i knew a couple other speech writers who were struggling and we kept wondering why are some people good at speaking why are other people struggling with it and it led us on a little bit of a journey together to try and figure that out And that mystery unlocked the bigger question of communication for me.
Public speaking is one thing, and it's a very specific thing. But just more broadly, how we relate to each other through the way we talk to each other, it just became this lifelong interest. And the more I dug into it, the more I understood about it, of course, and the more I talked to hundreds and then thousands of people about their challenges with it.
It just became something that I got deep in, but it wasn't something that I innately knew I had a depth in.
I like that, man. I like that. And I love the honesty in there, too, because most things that we're gifted at still takes time to develop and to harness to to where we can get to a level of greatness. Right. And so I appreciate the honesty there. You know, Matt, you've worked with a ton of leaders and speakers and coaches and you name it. Right. CEOs. What's one habit or trait?
that you could say all great leaders have when it comes to communication?
Well, the ironic part is the great quality they have is they're great listeners. And it's not about what they say. It's about the fact that they listen first and they're really attentive to the people they're with. I'm sure you've had this experience a million times because of the caliber of the guests you attract. You get people who are hang on your every word.
You can tell they are the best listener. You know, one of the challenges I often offer to people is to try to be the best listener in the room and not to make it a competition or anything, but what does it mean to be the best listener in any room that you're in? And look, if everybody's vying to be the best listener, that's a pretty good problem to have.
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Chapter 3: What challenges do corporate leaders face when addressing social issues?
Because if you're in your head or if you're trying to think of how a conversation should go or a decision that you should make, you shut down everything that the person or people in front of you are actually saying or trying to get across, even if they're not saying it verbally. Right. So you're right. Like listening.
And as my mentor, Les Brown, says, listen to the listening, because everything that people say isn't verbal. Right. And so you've got to be very cerebral. And so, again, one of the things that I know about you is just that how emotional intelligence matters. But you're just also a very cerebral person. And again, I think that's why I connect with you.
Well, to a fault, you know, I find myself cerebral to the point where I think, wait, hey, get back in your body a little bit, get out of your head. So, you know, sometimes you develop one thing to the detriment of the other.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, Matt, you're an amazing author and we're going to get to your new book, your latest book in a moment. But, you know, in Compelling People, and I have these notes written down, you know, you break down strength and warmth.
How can modern leaders, because I like speaking to the modern leader on the show, how can modern leaders find the right balance of strength and warmth while they're under pressure?
Well, let me just give a little bit of a picture of what I call strength and warmth. So strength to me is the capability to get things done. And it can show up in a lot of different ways. It can be skill. It can be social skill. It can be anything that allows you to accomplish what you're trying to do. And it's usually a combination of competence and assertiveness.
So it's not enough to just know stuff. You also have to be able to put yourself out there a little bit. And that's one of these judgments that people really prioritize when they're figuring out, hey, are you worth my time? Should I listen to you? Should I follow you? But the other judgment, warmth, is just as important.
And I think this is one where it's really tricky sometimes to think about what does that look and feel like in a work setting, for instance, because warm sounds, well, warm, right? And the way I define it is that you're showing people you share their concerns, their interests and their emotions, or at least you understand those things and you're accounting for them.
You know, it's one thing to be really strong and all about yourself. And it's a very different one to show people that you are other centered as well. And you can really put yourself in their shoes. And most of us tend to leave with one of these or the other. as a default, the same way some people are lefty or righty.
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Chapter 4: How should leaders navigate political and social conversations?
And so when I talk to people about this, I often say, I describe what I think of as this strength axis or this warmth axis and say, which one of these comes more naturally to you? And invariably people know, either they're a people person or they're kind of skill first. And then the question is, how do you strike the balance that your context requires of you? Because every context is different.
If you're a leader of a scientific organization, it's really different than if you're a leader in, say, a shipping company. And you're talking to people differently, you have different concerns, and there are just different qualities that leaders need in different places. Leadership is so context-specific.
And I think you can look at great leaders and say the balance of strength and warmth that worked in one place absolutely wouldn't work in another.
I love that. And I love the story and the breakdown. For the viewer or listener right now that's like, Matt, that sounds great. Strength and warmth. I know I need it. What are some practical pieces of advice from you, some pieces of wisdom from you of how they can get started, how they can start to recognize that these things in their everyday leadership responsibilities.
Well, the first question I already mentioned, which is which of these comes more naturally to you? Which one is there a little bit of a deficit in? And a couple of different ways to try and size this up.
One is if you have friends or colleagues, people you trust, and you can have this conversation with them about, say, you know, I think I'm pretty good at this thing, but I might be lacking in that. Obviously, it's great to get some feedback on that.
Another thing, and this is going to sound a little crazy, but it's one of the best ways to see how you're doing is if you have a chance to record yourself.
If you catch yourself in the wild on video and you see yourself as others see you, suddenly you realize, wait, I'm coming across like a Mack truck at people or I'm coming across as a little uncertain and tentative or whatever it is that your specific challenges are.
And that's a great way to try and get a read on how you're either combining that skill plus will on the strength axis or how you're demonstrating to other people you understand what matters to them rather than just your own concerns.
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Chapter 5: What outdated leadership clichés should be challenged?
So for you speaking out, like what was the compelling reason that said, I've got to put this on paper?
Well, you know, I've been watching and studying how leaders in all sectors speak for 15 years or so. And at one point I noticed that corporate leaders specifically were addressing political and social issues in a way that they never had when I was growing up. And I thought, this is a really interesting phenomenon.
I had started a little bit of a folder for myself where I was just kind of keeping stuff in Evernote thinking, huh, that's interesting. I've never seen a CEO say that. And this continued to grow or crest in some way over the 2010s. And finally, at some point, I saw people were writing about it here and there in an article in this thing or that thing.
But I'd never seen anybody really try and unpack what was going on here about why corporate leaders were being asked to weigh in on these issues, why it might matter. You know, there's a compelling argument to say that they shouldn't. And I wanted to try and understand, is there a place for corporate leaders to talk about political and social issues? If so, when, why, and how?
I dig that. And you're so right. I mean, today, when we talk about social and political issues, they're everywhere, right? And people are able to maybe I shouldn't say able, people can form their own opinions, right?
And so if you're the leader of a corporation, you've got social issues, political issues that can, not saying that purposely, maliciously, but can be divisive because they're in front of us for the first time where before, and I said this in a speech last week, a lot of people don't realize we used to get today's news tomorrow, right?
Well, now we get today's news as it happens and it triggers any and everything that we do.
So what's your advice actually to the leader that's seeing this for the first time that doesn't understand how the world used to be, where you could take your time and prepare your team message and have a rally around, you know, an idea or a thought where today something happens at lunch and you've got a hundred people that have a hundred different opinions and you as a leader have to control that a
Absolutely. Well, you have to do some really quick risk reward in your head when you're thinking about this, because you can really step in it when you're talking about a political or social issue in a way that can be very damaging to your reputation, to your leadership abilities, as well as to the organization and the company itself. So you have to do some pretty quick risk.
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Chapter 6: How can informal conversations enhance team connections?
But as far as taking a position more broadly or what happens in your conversation with a journalist at an outlet, that stuff is, you know, like I said, there are a whole lot of people informing you about that and giving you perspective on where the landmines are. But you do need to have that kind of nimble judgment.
So when some reporter surprises you or somebody asks that question in an all hands meeting, whether you're going to weigh in on it or not. And I think there are times where strategic silence is the right way to go and say, this is not in our lane. We're focused on, here's our mission. And there are other times when you absolutely have to say to people, you know what? I hear you about this.
We've got your back.
Yeah, totally. And Matt, I know you, like I work with Fortune 500, Fortune 100 companies, right? And there are times where there is a social stance or a political stance that as leaders, we have to publicly have a position on, right? Again, I'm not saying that every political or social stance, there needs to be a position, but there are some that do affect major corporations.
And I don't think enough people understand that. Talk to us about that when there is, whether it's a social stance, political stance or whatever, And that time is needed as the leader to have it. How do you coach leaders to take personal versus business? And sometimes those are polar opposites, right? What's good for me personally might not be the best stance for the business.
And how do you coach people through that? How do you coach leaders through that?
I do think it's really all about the... I mean, you have to be about the business first when you're a corporate leader. I don't think there's any other way around that. You can have strong feelings about something, but you have to be thinking about... I mean, we're talking about Fortune 500, Fortune 100. These are companies that have shareholders and they have a...
fiduciary duty to the shareholders. So you can't ever walk away from thinking that way. At the same time, I'll give you an example from not too distant history where we had the CEO of Dick's Sporting Goods after the mass shooting at Marjory Stone in high school back in 2017 or 2018. They were not going to be carrying these kind of rifles anymore.
And that was a deeply felt personal belief that was gonna have an effect on sales, an effect on the stock price, but he was gonna sleep better knowing that he wasn't helping to make that kind of thing happen again.
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Chapter 7: What practical advice can leaders implement for better communication?
That's deep. And I totally respect that as well, too. You know, again, diving into speak out a little bit, you know, you talk around Clarity and decision making. You talk about, you know, how to use these are my words, not the words of Matt, but I took it as using your voice as a leader as well, too.
What are some really good points that you want the listeners and viewers to to take away from the book?
Well, I think that we mentioned one of them first, which is if you're the leader and you're thinking, do I say something? You do have to listen. So let's say it's your employees. I think that's really where this is most important is you need to be willing to spend time just listening and not coming in with a point of view about something you don't know or haven't experienced in your own lived.
You don't have the lived experience to understand what other people are going through. So that's a huge part of it. But then I also think being values driven. is really critical here. So you know what the North Star is for your organization, you know why you do what you do, and you can articulate a position based in values.
Now, values can sound to some people like some sort of feel good thing, but to me, it's actually much more important than that. It's really the thing that allows you to say, this is why we do what we do.
And then the cherry on top for me, and this is where I think you really separate the good from the great, is the great leader, if they're taking a position on something that's political or social, isn't just saying something. They're actually going to put their money where their mouth is. And they're going to have some accountability steps for the organization.
The organization is going to put their weight behind something, or they're going to do something differently as a result of this. And not every issue lends itself to that, but when that is something that is... part of the profile of the issue, either you do something or why bother saying anything at all? Otherwise it's just, it's PR.
No, I, I totally believe that. And you segued into something I was going to say also about the book, which is using communication as an accountability tool, right? You talk a lot about accountability in the book. So for the, the listener, the viewer, and I don't care if you're seasoned or new, like How important is communication as an accountability component for your business as well, too?
Or for you as a leader?
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Chapter 8: How does accountability play a role in leadership communication?
outdated concepts or cliches that I want your help in debunking a few of these, right? So I'm going to start with this one. I hear a lot of leaders today in 2025 say, oh, I've got an open door policy. My challenge to that is if you're not present, then what are you, right? Because if you're present for your team, you don't need an open door policy because they see you.
I love your take on that as well.
I love the way you're putting it. I can't improve on that. I think that makes perfect sense. Ultimately, it comes back to what we said about listening again. Either you're there for people and they know they can have a direct line with you or you're not. And yeah, I also think it's just not true usually.
Absolutely. Absolutely. A huge fan of your books. And so I'm going to use my next myth or challenge because your books are very easily read. And so my next thing is you never have to tell people as a leader how smart you are. Because to me, that becomes intimidating. Right. Like when you're using words just to tell people, you know what those words mean.
It's intimidating to to the people that look to you as their leader. And I know from a communication standpoint, that is also a thing. Never over talk or out talk the people that you are the leader of. So what's your take on that piece?
Well, first, thanks for the compliment. The greatest thing anyone ever said about one of my books was that it was short and fast to read. I succeeded. But yeah, to your point, using the language of the people you talk to is critically important. And I think this is the warmth thing. That's the fundamental of warmth is if you're not speaking their language, how can they possibly understand you?
You might as well drop them into a foreign country. and just start babbling at them. So the way I look at it is whether the language is simple or complex, generally simple is going to be the way to reach the largest group of people. But I also think that to your point, if you're using complex multisyllabic words, you're going to just seem more abstract.
And that's just a little bit about the nature of English too, that the words that are longer are the more abstract ones just because of the way the language is constructed. And so what you can do to try and use the short one, two syllable word makes a huge difference in terms of punch and impact in what you're saying.
This is one of my favorite things to pick on when I see something that I know is written by chat GPT, because it's never in the short words. It's always in the long Latin eight, four syllable words.
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