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Modern Wisdom

Inside The Democratic Party Civil War - Ezra Klein - #1114

22 Jun 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: How did Ezra Klein become an unlikely thirst trap?

0.031 - 10.208 Ezra Klein

Ezra Klein, so hot right now. Oh no. Did you ever expect to be referred to as an unlikely thirst trap? I did not. And I try to ignore that it's happening.

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13.413 - 24.452 Chris Williamson

It also has this funny quality, some of this coverage of how now it's like I took off my glasses and grew a beard and it's very, she's all that. It's like, oh, like maybe he's, I always look the same to me.

0

25.073 - 39.095 Ezra Klein

Well, an unlikely thirst trap feels like the most backhanded insult or compliment. It's like a Rorschach test for whether or not you feel good about yourself. I don't know what way that's, is that supposed to be a nice thing? Unlikely thirst trap.

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39.516 - 46.446 Chris Williamson

I don't, when you are profiled, it is not supposed to be a nice thing. Okay, so you'll take the likely first trappers.

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Chapter 2: What are the implications of the Democrats' tweets?

46.466 - 57.503 Chris Williamson

I think that's also an important thing to know about just the whole genre of profiling. It's never supposed to be a totally nice thing. Usually not supposed to be a totally mean thing. It's trying to create energy.

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58.144 - 58.805 Ezra Klein

That's interesting.

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Chapter 3: Could a liberal Joe Rogan have changed the election outcome?

58.966 - 69.702 Ezra Klein

There was a rumor in that that you'd had to adjust your lighting on your podcast set to make you look less attractive because it was distracting from the real substance of the... It is a not true rumor.

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70.063 - 81.164 Chris Williamson

Wow. Wow. And it's going to be an even weirder thing to discuss here while you're sitting there like three times as ripped in front of me as we talk about whether or not I'm hot.

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81.545 - 88.839 Ezra Klein

I thought that that was an interesting profile. But yeah, how do you feel about having a mini celebrity moment like that?

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89.58 - 117.451 Chris Williamson

You try to focus on the work. And I mean that really seriously. I think that if you start to see yourself in the third person, it is very, very dangerous for doing good work. It's like the input of good work is independence of mind. And for me particularly, it's a lot of time spent by myself reading books, thinking about things. Once the world's idea of you gets into your head, it is poison.

0

117.932 - 138.139 Chris Williamson

And I think that's true, by the way, for people who get profiled or have many moments. I think it's also just naturally true for everybody now who has social media profiles and has this kind of constant front stage that they keep up. I always tell people who come to me for advice in journalism or who are having some kind of

138.119 - 157.275 Chris Williamson

pop in the press that you really have to be intentional about maintaining as much of a backstage as you can. And when I see people who aren't having a pop, like destroying their backstage, I worry about them. The streamers worry me like in an almost paternalistic way.

157.255 - 181.508 Chris Williamson

i watch the amount of their lives they're putting on online they're putting in front of a camera how little is left for them and psychologically i think it is going to do a lot of people a lot of damage everyone feels uncomfortable watching that you ever read superstar true love story by gary steingart no it's amazing amazing book it is as prophetic a book on this moment as anybody has ever done it was probably done 10 20 10 15 years ago

181.488 - 204.373 Chris Williamson

And everything in it, it's like it's all about a world of streamers and sort of America coming apart and people having everything around them like raided in public and everybody in it is looks maxing. There's a whole thing about how books smell bad, like it's sort of like de classe to have physical books. So at least we haven't done that yet. But you can really...

204.353 - 219.673 Chris Williamson

have these moments right now where you realize we have built the dystopia. We have done the thing the sci-fi writers warned us against doing just in all directions, all at once. And it's just hope it turns out well this time.

Chapter 4: What makes the ideal Democratic candidate?

231.088 - 255.576 Chris Williamson

I don't go to very much. Did you read Lena Dunham's new book? It's great, Famesick. And she talks a bunch about the way everything creates more of itself. Everything you do creates more of itself. And so if you get on different circuits, it just, it eats you. It eats the time. So for me, it's like the way I think about my work. Most weeks I bring out three things.

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256.097 - 281.695 Chris Williamson

I bring out two podcast episodes and one call. And the week is just very much organized around that. And I just more and more and more try to cut out like everything that is not directly feeding into one of those three pieces of work or is not my children, my family and deep friendships or like personal relationships. Karen time. Right. And that's already a lot.

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281.715 - 286.726 Chris Williamson

Like, even as I say those five ish things to you, I feel pretty tired. Yeah.

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287.608 - 313.827 Ezra Klein

Yeah. And the fact that I guess one shortcut is to just make all of the other stuff part of the main thing. to turn all of the private life into the public life. I think Mary Harrington talks about a digital hijab that she wears where she covers up a lot of the parts of her that she doesn't want the world to see. A digital hijab, that's a great coinage. She wears this thing. She told this story.

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313.847 - 336.994 Ezra Klein

She finished her first marathon, a half marathon, something, some race. She's into running. And she took a selfie at the end because that's what you do, right? I'm proud of this thing. And she went to post it and she sort of saw this universe split, which was how much of this is for me and how much of this is for the internet. And yeah, I mean, it is very easy to be distracted from doing work.

337.109 - 360.293 Chris Williamson

I'm curious how you handle this, because you have a tougher job on this than I do. So my work, I can define it much more tightly. It's primarily about politics, current affairs, geopolitics. I bring in some things I care about, like meditation. But for the most part, It is not natural. I have to choose to let it colonize the things that are closer to my core.

361.075 - 368.933 Chris Williamson

But yours, like the topics you touch on the show, they're very personal. So anything can become content for you.

369.935 - 370.035

Yeah.

370.015 - 389.145 Ezra Klein

It's been a purposeful, I think I'm quite, by disposition, I'm quite a private person. My personal life's always remained very private. And that's been something that a bunch of friends gave me advice on early on. And I'm really glad that I followed it. Once you open that door, I think it's very difficult to reverse it. People are interested in, oh, who are you dating now?

Chapter 5: How should we regulate AI for societal benefit?

4093.633 - 4108.641 Ezra Klein

Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. This orange salt in a cold glass of water is like a sweet, salty, orangey nectar. And I really tell the difference when I take it versus when I don't.

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4108.621 - 4124.315 Ezra Klein

It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue, helps to optimize brain health, and regulates your appetite while also curbing cravings. Best of all, they have a no-questions-asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it and try it for as long as you want, and if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back.

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4124.595 - 4139.991 Ezra Klein

Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash. What a wisdom.

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Chapter 6: What are the risks associated with AI safety?

4140.693 - 4160.596 Ezra Klein

It's interesting. I had Nick Bostrom on the show and super intelligence 10 more, more than 10 years ago now, 2014, 15, something like that. When that came out was kind of my introduction to holy shit. Like there are a lot of ways that this could go very, very wrong. The X risk of X risks. And then his new book was basically, okay, what happens if this goes right?

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4160.756 - 4180.377 Ezra Klein

And even on the path to it going right, there were tons of different ways that it could go wrong. It is kind of mind blowing to me that there is any time being spent on anything that isn't AI safety at the moment. I'm aware, climate change, something that we need to keep an eye on. It's not going to happen within the next decade.

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4180.542 - 4191.257 Ezra Klein

Uh, birth rate decline, something that I've talked a lot about on the show too. I think, you know, that's going to happen more quickly than climate changes, but still not on the timelines that we're talking about here. All right.

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Chapter 7: How do we ensure the future of human flourishing in the age of AI?

4191.277 - 4194.501 Ezra Klein

Do you see Tristan Harris's new thing, the AI doc?

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4194.762 - 4196.084 Chris Williamson

I haven't seen the doc, but I know Tristan.

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4196.344 - 4198.367 Ezra Klein

Ah, dude, it's really, really good.

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4198.387 - 4213.098 Chris Williamson

It's really, really interesting. I have come as a person who was in that world for a long time. I've come to a probably slightly different view on the right way to approach it. Are you going to give me a white pill? I really need one. What would a white pill be? I never know the pills anymore. There are too many of them. Hope. Feel better? Hope. No, look.

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Chapter 8: What insights does Ezra Klein offer on personal growth and emotional awareness?

4216.305 - 4235.758 Chris Williamson

You cannot solve a problem whose shape you do not know. You can't. So it's good to talk about AI safety. We should be pumping money into, say, mechanistic interpretability. We have made big strides on interpretability. Shout out to Chris Ola at Anthropic, who's been a hero in this and is now hanging out with the Pope, I guess.

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4236.098 - 4237.22 Gary Shteyngart

Apparently.

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4237.24 - 4261.829 Chris Williamson

Good thing to see good things happen to good people. We should be trying to understand these systems. But so much of the AI conversation... the mind is attracted to these speculative scenarios, mass automation where there are no more jobs, recursive superintelligence, self-improving superintelligence that slips out of our control like overnight. Here's the deal.

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4262.449 - 4281.731 Chris Williamson

If we create recursive superintelligence that slips out of our control overnight, which is sort of how like the AI 2027 scenario works, We better just hope for the best because I think we are kind of fucked in that scenario. I don't think it will happen like that or that quickly. I agree. But we want as good interpretability as we can possibly have.

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4281.771 - 4305.168 Chris Williamson

But the other thing we want is to be in constant work on regulating the existing nature of these systems and at their frontier and testing the systems and working on them constantly. Because... In the same way that the AI companies, the ones who are founded on the theory of safety, like OpenAI and Anthropic, were like, well, we can't make it safe unless we build it.

4306.19 - 4327.772 Chris Williamson

You cannot figure out how to regulate it unless you regulate it, both for good and for bad. And so my view is that the political system needs to get in the game on the system that exists right now. And not endlessly debate a speculative scenario that it is not going to be able to respond to until you're there. That is not how politics works. It's not how like anything we do works.

4328.313 - 4338.877 Chris Williamson

So, yes, like that does imply a certain amount of pessimism if we end up in the extraordinary fast takeoff scenario. Yeah. I don't think we're in the extraordinary fast takeoff scenario.

4339.439 - 4360.957 Chris Williamson

And just by the way, I have always thought and have always had this argument by effective altruist friends and actually Dorkesh Patel, who's like a great AI podcaster, just sent out like a little sub stack making the same point. The capability to wield power is more than intelligence, a lot more. And so the world is full of friction.

4361.959 - 4384.048 Chris Williamson

And the super intelligence scenario has always had this dynamic where it isn't just like the thing becomes recursive and proving and super powerful and super, but it also never makes a mistake on its way to taking over a world that doesn't understand. And have you ever dealt with smart people? Like, is Donald Trump the smartest person in the world?

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