Cécile Fabre, "Spying Through a Glass Darkly: The Ethics of Espionage and Counter-Intelligence" (Oxford UP, 2022)
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What is the central question about the morality of spying and counter‑intelligence?
Hi everyone, this is Marshall Poe. I'm the founder of the New Books Network, and I'm also a historian. I used to be a history professor, and I love maps, so I'm especially happy to tell you that this episode is sponsored by What's Your Map, which was the winner of the Best Education Podcast at the 2025 British Podcast Awards. What's Your Map is hosted by historian and prize-winning author Professor Jerry Broughton. In each episode, he invites a guest to share a map close to their heart and unfurl the ideas, inspirations, and stories behind it. I can tell you I've listened and it's fascinating. The podcast is in its sixth series and is enjoyed by audiences around the globe. You can explore all the maps in the podcast online.
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Hello, and thanks for joining us for this episode of New Books and Philosophy, which is part of the New Books Network. I'm Robert Talese. I am professor of philosophy at Vanderbilt University. I co-host the program with Carrie Figter, Malcolm Keating, and Sarah Tyson. My guest today is Cecile Fobb. Cecile is senior research fellow in politics at All Souls College, Oxford. She's also professor of political philosophy at the University of Oxford. Her research is focused on central normative questions about justice, cosmopolitanism, and war. Her new book has just been published with Oxford University Press. Its title is Spying Through a Glass Darkly, The Ethics of Espionage and Counterintelligence. Now on its face, spying and counterintelligence activities seem morally suspect.
They tend to involve sneaking, deceiving, and manipulating, as well as various forms of betrayal, treachery, and disloyalty. But intelligence and counterintelligence operations are mainstays of any modern state. Should we conclude that these activities are wrong, but nonetheless necessary, given the realities of modern politics? Now, in Spying Through a Glass Darkly, Cecile Fobb develops an intricate account of the morality of spying and counterintelligence activities. She argues that routine espionage activities are morally justified and even sometimes obligatory as a means to thwart violations of fundamental rights. However, she also argues that familiar forms of mass surveillance are unjustified.
Now, as usual, there's a lot of interesting stuff to talk about here. But let's begin, as we normally do, with our guest. Hello, Cecile. How are you? Hi, Bob. I'm very well. Thank you. How are you? Oh, I'm doing fine today. It's really nice to talk to you. But we usually begin these interviews with the author of a fabulous new book, speaking a little bit about herself. Can you tell us a bit about yourself?
Yes, of course. First of all, let me thank you for having me on the program. I've looked forward to this very much. About myself, well, I'm a moral and political philosopher, currently, as you said, at the University of Oxford. As I'm sure your listeners will have spotted by now, and they know already I'm French, but I've lived in the United Kingdom for 30 years, actually, 30 years in Ovesia. So I first came over to do a master's degree at the University of York. Then I moved to Oxford to do my doctorate under the supervision of Jerry Cohen. And then I've moved around the UK quite a bit until I came back to Oxford about 12 years ago, now. As you said, I've worked a lot on series of justice, cosmopolitanism, the ethics of war.
I've also had a longstanding interest in the rights that we have of our own body.
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Chapters
7 chapters
1
What is the central question about the morality of spying and counter‑intelligence?
0:00–6:55
2
How does Cécile Fabre introduce her background and the motivation for writing *Spying Through a Glass Darkly*?
6:55–18:50
3
What are the three main philosophical approaches (dirty‑hands, contractarian, just‑war) that the book evaluates?
18:50–26:56
4
Why does Fabre argue that routine espionage can be morally justified or even obligatory?
26:56–37:47
5
How does the right to political secrecy provide a foundation for defending espionage?
37:47–47:36
6
When can deception in espionage be morally permissible or mandatory, according to the author?
47:36–58:57
7
What is the case for treason being morally permissible or even a duty in certain espionage contexts?
58:57–1:02:29
Speakers
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