David Chai, "Zhuangzi and the Becoming of Nothingness" (SUNY Press, 2018)
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What is the focus of David Chai’s new book on the Zhuangzi?
Welcome to the New Books Network.
Hello and welcome to New Books and Philosophy, a podcast channel with the New Books Network. I'm Alexis McLeod, Associate Professor of Philosophy in Asian and Asian American Studies at the University of Connecticut. I'm co host of this channel along with Robert Talise, Carrie Figdoor, and Sarah Tyson. I'm joined today by David Chai, Associate Professor of Philosophy at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. He's here to discuss his new book, Zhuangzi and the Becoming of Nothingness. Well, thanks for joining me, David, today to talk about your book on uh on one of my favorite texts, uh the Zhuangzi. Um so I wanna begin by asking you just uh how you got into philosophy and how you came into the topic of this book in particular.
Well uh thank you for uh inviting me to Um chat with you about uh One of the uh Chinese thinkers that I I adore the most, uh Dwangze. Um I actually fell into Taoism kind of uh accidentally. Um My my original undergrad degree was not in philosophy but in architecture. And uh That kind of gave me a mindset for looking at the world. Um In a a very Organized Um a manner, a different way of viewing the relationship between things. Um And uh having finished the degree in architecture I I decided I wanted to actually come and work in in Asia because uh in the nineties uh this is where all the big construction was being uh uh conducted. So I I um uh switched universities, uh University of Toronto And uh I wanted to learn one year of Chinese language as kind of preparation for
uh this big journey that I as uh kind of naive uh young adults had Um to just pack up and go to Asia. Uh so I was uh taking a course on Chinese and I uh happen to Come across another course on Taoism. And I didn't You know, no knowledge of what Taoism was. So I said, Well, why not? I'll just I'll just have a go at it. And it turned out to be uh the best course that I Uh I took in all of my years. Автоворц і уверсити. Um I remember quite vividly the uh the very first lecture was in a big auditorium. And the prof, uh, Leonard Priestley. uh who does Taoism and um uh Indian Buddhism. Uh just had a chair. And he brought it to the very front of the stage, and he sat there. And there's a lot. Two hundred, three hundred people.
You know, uh in the auditory I'm listening. And he just read the text. He read a line, he explained it. He read another line, he explained it. And it just fascinated me. Ан та пік місте. Um so after doing that course. I decided to investigate Yeah. And I did other courses related to Chinese philosophy. uh literature Aesthetics. Um And in those days, uh in Toronto there was uh Uh very Yeah. Established group of scholars, Julia Ching. Alan Chan. Richard Lynn. Um Uh as well as Leonard Priestley. uh Will Oxtabies all these well known scholars uh We're there in one place, so I just took advantage of uh the presence and I I did as as many courses as I could Uh and the more I studied Chinese thought. Літера, фолософі
uh art theory, the more I fell in love with it. So I abandoned my Um My my my planned illustrious career in architecture. Uh I had my midlife crisis in my early twenties, so I abandoned that. I said, There's no way I'm gonna be successful in that. Uh and I said uh this is what I want to do. And for some reason I had the insight uh of knowing that if I'm gonna do this Meaning Chinese philosophy. As a career path, I needed to go to grad school. Uh So that was that was my my road. Laid out for me. Um, as an undergrad. And that's what I ended up doing. I I was trained in Sinology. Um Uh So over the years of of reading these texts quite quite a A good number of years. Uh now it's it's uh What's about thirty years? Um So it's become, you know, part of my life.
Uh I'm not a a a practicing Taoist. Um, but you can't help but to kind of embody part of the The philosophy Uh and that comes out uh not only in in my writing but Uh in my teaching as well. So it's uh A very interesting uh uh turn of events. And uh you also realize that that time period in China Сикс центри, фіфт центрі, форт центрі бісі.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the focus of David Chai’s new book on the Zhuangzi?
0:00–9:03
2
How did David Chai’s personal journey lead him to study Taoism and the Zhuangzi?
9:03–18:13
3
What does “nothingness” mean in the context of the Zhuangzi and how does it differ from Western notions of nihilism?
18:13–27:28
4
How does the Zhuangzi use the concept of nothingness in specific passages, such as the wheel‑hub chapter?
27:28–36:00
5
What Taoist practices—like “forgetting” or “fasting of the mind”—embody the idea of nothingness?
36:00–45:06
6
How does the notion of oneness relate to Taoist ethics and the sage’s way of living?
45:06–53:52
7
What are David Chai’s upcoming projects and how will they expand on the themes of nothingness and knowing?
53:52–1:03:47
8
Why are the ideas in the Zhuangzi still relevant for modern readers and everyday life?
1:03:47–1:13:09
Speakers
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