Tommie Shelby, "The Idea of Prison Abolition" (Princeton UP, 2022)
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What is the central moral problem posed by mass incarceration?
Welcome to the New Books Network.
Hello and thanks for joining us for this episode of New Books in Philosophy, which is part of the New Books Network. I'm Robert Talis, I'm professor of philosophy at Vanderbilt University. I co-host the program with Carrie Figder, Malcolm Keating, and Sarah Tyson. My guest today is Tommy Shelby. Tommy is the Caldwell Titcomb Professor of African and African American Studies and of Philosophy at Harvard University. Tommy's research focuses on social and political thought and philosophy of race. He has a new book which has just been published by Princeton University Press. It's titled The Idea of Prison Abolition. Now, by any reasonable metric. Prisons, as they exist in the United States and in many other countries, are simply normatively unacceptable.
Now what's the proper response to this though? Can prisons and the practices surrounding incarceration feasibly be reformed? Or should we rather abolish the entire enterprise of incarceration? Now if the latter, well then what? And if the former What are the necessary reforms? Now, in his book, The Idea of Prison Abolition, Tommy Shelby undertakes a systematic and critical examination of the arguments in favor of abolishing prisons. Although he ultimately rejects abolitionism as a philosophical position. He builds from the abolitionist programs crucial insights his own positive view of what it would take to create a prison and incarceration system that would be consistent with justice. Now as usual, there's a lot to talk about, but we'll begin, as we normally do, with our guest
Hello Tommy, how are you? I'm good
Bob. So grate great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Oh, well, thank you for writing the book. It was a real uh joy to read. I mean, I I joy to read is a little bit weird. It was a really, really cool book to read and uh uh I highly recommend it. Um so you know, these interviews begin usually with a little bit uh about the author. Can you tell us a bit about yourself?
Sure, I could say a bit. Um, so I was born in Jacksonville, Florida. Well not exactly actually strictly speaking, I was born in in rural uh southwest Georgia in a s very small town Um of Viana, Georgia, is they would call it. And but mostly raised in Jacksonville, Florida and I had a sort of small stint in uh my teenage years in Los Angeles. So partly raised there, but mostly in Jacksonville. Florida? I'm the oldest of of six. Um most ways by my mother. And I'm a first generation College student. Um neither my mother or father went to college and I went to Florida and M University, which is a historically Black University in Tallahassee, Florida. And um you know it was really there that I first encountered philosophy as a discipline.
I actually had never heard of the philosophy before I got to to college. Um I might have heard the word, but I had no idea what it was, or as a discipline And You know, I kinda found my way to it a little Haphazardly, you know, being a a first gen student, you you tend to be most of us anyway, tend to be fairly practical about being in college and you think of it as an opportunity to to get skills and credentials that'll enable you to get a job. And I certainly approached it that way in my first year. Started out in the the school of business and industry there, which was very popular in had the the great option of a paid internship every summer. Um, which is very attractive from my point of view. But I after my first year of taking classes in
business administration and accounting, I just sort of found it just just intolerably boring. And um couldn't really see myself sticking with it. You know, for many, many years, decades of my life kind of working in that domain. And sort of felt like I'd listen really needed to find something that I think would kind of keep my interest, keep me excited, not too bored, you know, over the the course of a life. And so I just started taking all sorts of courses. Um and that included sociology and psychology, courses in religion. And it was really the courses in religion that led me to to philosophy.
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Chapters
5 chapters
1
What is the central moral problem posed by mass incarceration?
0:01–9:18
2
How does Tommie Shelby’s personal journey shape his view of prisons?
9:18–21:35
3
What are the two main philosophical camps on prison reform vs. abolition?
21:35–39:46
4
How does Shelby justify the continued use of imprisonment despite its flaws?
39:46–1:04:20
5
What role could nonprofit or non‑profit‑run prisons play in a reformed system?
1:04:20–1:09:34
Speakers
2 identifiedMore from New Books in Philosophy
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