Chapter 1: What is discussed at the start of this section?
This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Hey, it's Nora Jones, and my podcast, Playing Along, is back with more of my favorite musicians. Check out my newest episode with Josh Groban. You related to the Phantom at that point.
Yeah, I was definitely the Phantom in that.
That's so funny. Share each day with me Each night, each morning Listen to Nora Jones is Playing Along on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
On paper, the three hosts of the Nick Dick and Paul show are geniuses.
We can explain how AI works, data centers, but there are certain things that we don't necessarily understand. Better version of play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Yes.
Which, by the way, wasn't Taylor Swift who said that for the first time. I actually, I thought it was. I got that wrong.
But hey, no one's perfect. We're pretty close, though. Listen to the Nick Dick and Paul show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
If you're watching the latest season of The Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down.
Dorsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a married man. They holding K. Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues.
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Chapter 2: What was the viral moment involving Chris Brown and Quavo?
He was invited. So obviously, but if it meant that Chris Brown was going to turn and walk out of that door, if he asked to move Quavo and they didn't, I guarantee you Ruigi would have stopped everything he was doing and went to Quavo personally and asked him to move. Guaranteed. And that's all I was saying. And only a superstar or a star that is bigger than Quavo can request that and do that.
That's all I was trying to say.
If I'm trying to sell hockey gear, is Chris Brown going to be my best option to sell it as a model? No. He's a star, but that's not his world. I don't understand what you... Your point was that you should always go with the bigger star, the more recognizable person if you're trying to sell something.
Chapter 3: How do Chris Brown and Quavo compare in relevance?
And I'm saying not that rude is niche per se, but it is a specific type of fashion in a specific culture. Doesn't mean you should just go with the biggest superstar. If I'm trying to sell hockey gear, that's a specific culture. You don't just grab the recognizable star. You want someone that's close to your consumer and what they also want to do. Right.
But as you know, with any campaign, they always go with a star, a superstar. We see campaigns, Calvin Klein, all up and down Fifth Avenue, Madison Avenue. They're not getting somebody that's just like they're going to aim for the biggest star they can get at the moment. That's all I'm saying. Now, Quavo was invited. Like Mark Wahlberg? Whoever. Quavo was invited. And Chris was invited.
All I was saying was if Chris had a real issue and didn't want to sit next to Quavo and he requested that they moved Quavo, Ruigi personally would have moved Quavo or asked him, yo, because I don't want to make it seem like, Quavo, get the fuck out of here. We don't want to be disrespectful. That's Quavo. But Ruigi would have asked, yo, Quavo, do me a favor, bro.
Just sit on this side because I don't want it to be, you know, any issue. That's all I'm saying. And only a superstar or a star bigger than Quavo could request that. That's all I was saying. Well, Amara's first actual birthday couldn't have came at a better time. I was completely off my phone for this entire exchange. I checked my mentions sort of last night.
Can you guys fill me in on what happened on the Internet? In regards to what? This going viral. I understand Quavo replied. I understand Chris Brown replied. I got a bunch of calls from people that work in industry asking if the conversation was real. They thought it was like something we were just doing just for clicks and shit like that. And I was like, no, it was a real conversation.
There's so much more context to it and nuance to it, which we're not going to get into here because the actual conversation was had on Patreon. Go find it if you want it there. But yeah, the clip wasn't addressing what we were actually talking about.
At all. At all.
So people coming to your defense in those comments and you coming in here and like coming on and be like, I told him it doesn't apply because it wasn't what we were talking about.
They had no idea what the fuck we were talking about.
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Chapter 4: What impact does UMG's TikTok decision have on artists?
Yes, he's going to have more followers. Do you think there is a world where someone can be hotter but not greater than an artist at the moment? Of course. There's a lot of rappers hotter than Jay-Z right now. None of them are greater than Jay-Z. Ice Spice is hotter than everybody right now.
And do you think at certain events, especially for younger people, that could play a role in what is happening? I think... But hot only means that... See, because hot is... Temporarily. If you're more... If you're seen more. Like, if you're out more, you're more accessible, you have more events, you're more doing... That means you're hot. You got features that are currently in the market.
But Chris Brown has one of the biggest songs out right now with Davido. Davido. Yeah. It's a big record. No disrespect. So I'm saying, like, so what does it mean when y'all say that? It's like... Chris Brown's record right now is hotter than any record Quavo has right now. Also, we were trying to explain in the full conversation the times we're in now. We've had this combo separately.
Music isn't what makes you the most relevant now. Sometimes it's just brand recognition, who you're dating, what you're doing online. Yeah, that's bells and whistles, though. That's how you dress it up. We always got to go back to... And hotter doesn't have much value compared to greatness.
Because we were arguing, too, that there was a time when Migos' run, music-wise, was significantly hotter than Chris Brown. At one point, Fetty Wap was hotter than everybody. Mm-hmm. But Chris Brown's been around for 20 years, so that's what speaks to greatness. Our point was based off who was hot at the moment. And that changes things.
If iSpice would have walked into that rude fashion show, she would be royalty. She'd take precedent. Because that's just how marketing and the world works right now. With face recognition to a younger generation. As hot as Ice Spice is, I don't think that if she walks into a fashion event in Paris right now, she still is a hotter or a bigger conversation than if Chris Brown does.
Only because Chris Brown is not seen at these events like that. So if he decides to come out and goes to these events, it's like, oh shit, Chris is here. And also, I don't want to put that on Roots as a brand's jacket. They have much more integrity as far as that goes. But there is plenty of huge brands that... Do not care as long as that person is famous that week.
They are going to... Come on in. Yeah, but it's a difference. Look at the people that now get invited to the Met Gala out of nowhere. Influencers. Who was it? Cardi B bringing up how long it took her to get there and then now people... Yeah. You could be hot that week and Anna Wintour's like, come on in. Didn't Anna Wintour take Ice Spice to the Met Gala?
Yes.
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Chapter 5: What insights does the podcast provide about the relationship between tech companies and the music industry?
It's a really good series if you haven't seen it. It's up there like with the Uber series. It's just one of those. If you're into this type of shit, you need to go see it. So in the series, which is pretty accurate, that's a good representation if you want to get a back history of how tech companies and the music industry have combined.
So Spotify had this great idea, created all these routers and all this shit that made it capable to stream all music from a computer.
Mm-hmm.
but they needed the music. So naturally they went to the major labels, which all laughed in their fucking faces because they own all the back catalogs of every fucking artist ever. And it's like, why would we move to the beat of your drum and what you want and license this shit when we own what you need to even create this entire thing?
It was a back and forth, looked like Spotify was never going to exist. The result was the three majors all have ownership within Spotify. That was the only conclusion that they could all come to, which to me is a fair one at the end of the day. Spotify is a tech company, but they revolutionized how the masses can get music with their phones and their computers.
But also, why the majors are so important, whether we like it or not, own all the music that we listen to. If I'm a major, I'm definitely telling Spotify, no, I'm just not licensing some shit to you for a fee.
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Chapter 6: How do major labels leverage their catalog against tech companies?
I need to be a part of your tech company, which to me is completely fair. Spotify had no leverage because they were the first. I mean, there was other streaming sites, but this was one that obviously changed everything. They had no leverage. TikTok now being who they are and who they're backed by has a little bit more leverage than the average tech company.
So them going in to negotiate with, say, a universal Warner or whatever, is not looking at it the same way as Spotify. But the majors, as arrogant as they've always been and as late to the party as they've always been, still thinks the whole world needs to beat to their drum because they have the catalog. Right. And TikTok did not budge and said, fuck it. cool, we won't need to use your catalog.
And the majors have never been treated that way in their entire existence. Whether it be movies, because they went through this with, you know, Universal is not just Universal Music Group. They own movies. We've seen it with Disney buying up every last other streaming site. They've never been treated this way or ever met their match before. I appreciate them not budging,
But I think they're in a lose-lose situation. If they budge, now whatever the next tech company, of course TikTok is here to stay. No one's trying to argue that. But inevitably, like the world turns, because it's flat, there will always be a new tech company that's going to need music. And UMG has never feared that because they always had the leverage.
If they cave to TikTok, now we're in a situation where our negotiations aren't the same as they were with Spotify, with Apple, with everybody else. But if you don't cave and you stand on your business... as arrogant as the majors are, and TikTok continues to move the fuck on, and your artists are affected, now you've lost all leverage that you've ever had.
Because clearly you're not needed for these tech companies anymore when it comes to back catalog or future relationships with artists.
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Chapter 7: What implications does the TikTok and UMG negotiation have for independent artists?
How does this help? The only people that suffer in this entire thing are artists. But how does this help independent artists? I think in a good way. I mean, if you take away... I mean, UMG... That's everybody. We don't need to say Taylor Swift, Drake, etc. They have almost everybody. I think it helps independent artists.
I think it takes some leverage away from the majors too with doing deals with other artists. If I'm looking to sign... and I'm the hottest thing moving right now on YouTube or whatever, and you take away my music being able to be promoted on TikTok, do you think I'd ever fucking sign with you?
Right. I'm also thinking from a younger artist perspective, where younger artists are being discovered is on TikTok. So say I'm a young artist that has a following online, I blow up on TikTok, as most are doing now. And then I sign to Universal. Universal and their legal team, before the ink's dry, will own your back catalog.
So immediately, you're telling me, the day I sign with you, you're going to now have the rights to my back catalog and then rip it off a platform that I got my name from? And then what? I'm pretty much starting from square zero. Because say I have a million on TikTok, but my Instagram has like 100,000. Mm-hmm. my following's over here.
So now we're isolating, we're depriving my audience that got me to this point. And now I have to, what, do this on Instagram and Twitter or wherever now?
So it's basically like creating another, I have to go to this label.
You're just robbing artists of, it is, the real losers are the artists. I mean, to the point that Rory made.
Yeah, because now we're losing all promotion. Like, no matter what To some degree, and I've been on record not being a fuck majors type of person. I think with certain artists, majors are actually great for you. I think it's awesome. And I think independents are great for other artists.
But if you rob me, not only of my masters and probably the fair share of profit outside of what you put up for me, It is what it is. That's the industry standard. It sucks, but that's cool. Now you're robbing me of my promotion. Now I can't even promote my record to get the pennies off the dollar that I'm getting. Now tell me now you're legitimately a bank of America. Yeah.
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Chapter 8: How do love languages impact personal relationships discussed in the podcast?
Like there's no need for an artist to sign a major recording deal. And I think that was a premature statement based off the majors relationship with Spotify, i.e. being part owners and with TikTok and with platforms like Instagram. If you erase that, then at this point, Find a drug dealer to finance your dreams. Like, what are we doing at this point? What's happened before? I know.
But it's different when you're taking so many resources. And on top of that, we just watched Universal, Warner, all these reports that they're laying off half their staff. Right now, the music industry is laying off more people than any other industry at all. So now I don't have a staff. I don't have access to the biggest platform. Okay, you're going to give me $100,000
to record an album that I don't own that you're gonna give me pennies off the dollar. Why? Yeah. What I'm seeing, so I'm seeing some financial people who are talking about that. So basically TikTok paid UMG 110 million. They're paying them around $110 million per year.
TikTok is comparable to Facebook Meta, with whom UMG had a multi-year deal with in 2022, who they're paying, I think, three times as much. They're paying $200 to $300 million per year to license the content.
So doubling, damn near tripling what TikTok is paying, right? However... you're not going to, you can advertise on Meta and Facebook and Instagram and all of that. It's never going to get the type of coverage that it's going to get on TikTok.
So I don't blame TikTok for not wanting to pay as much, but that is a big difference. I don't think, this is my personal opinion. I read all the articles and I have no inside information. I think UMG went in for an actual percentage of TikTok. The same way they have done with every other tech company how they've dealt with YouTube, how they've dealt with everyone, and they were needed.
TikTok is a platform that, of course, we know Taylor Swift records go crazy on there. We know there's dances with every artist. They don't live and die by a back catalog or future music. They just don't. People are going to generate videos because they love TikTok and like making TikToks. They'll dance to anything.
That's actually kind of the beauty of TikTok where they almost treat it like SoundCloud of a rabbit hole where those sounds and that shit, even if you don't have a huge following, your shit can pop on TikTok.
So if you take that away where the kids are not focused on trying to dance to what the hottest song is right now or have a back catalog, some random fucking DJ could just make a beat and if it has the right...
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