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Chapter 1: What is discussed at the start of this section?
Be the right club. Be the right club today.
Yes! That's better than most.
How about him? That is better than most.
Better than most! Expect anything different?
ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the nolanga podcast my name is dj uh this is it's our sunday episode technically but it's gonna be a lot different than our normal sunday episode that's because we're off filming a season of our travel series tourist sauce and so what you're gonna get tonight is actually part two of our deep dot our deep deep deep dive on architect extraordinaire pete dye if you've not listened to part one
That should be the previous one in the feed. Go check that out. Me, Neil, and Charlie Van Kirk having a lengthy chat about Pete's bio. The first couple courses that we wanted to cover, we're doing this as kind of a history of Pete Dye and 10 golf courses. So we covered the first three. In episode one, we're going to cover the rest of them here in episode two. Lots of fun.
Excited to get into the remainder of our research today on this episode. Before we get started, I want to give a shout out, as always, to our friends at Titleist, presenting sponsor of this here podcast. Like I mentioned, we are off shooting our travel series of Tourist Sauce right now.
I'm probably standing somewhere in Scotland right now with a GTS2 driver in my hand, maybe even feeling whiffs of confidence off the tee for the first time in quite a while. I got fit for the GTS driver.
it's been a couple weeks now i feel like i'm i finally have have worked out any kinks i'm used to it i'm ready to rock uh and it's it's been truly delightful i just checked my arcos right before this i'm actually gaining shots with my driver for the first time in quite a while i ended up getting fit like i said into the gts2 it was a good fitting process because a lot there's a lot of combinations there's a lot of stuff to uh look into a lot of levers
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Chapter 2: What are the key themes in Pete Dye's golf course designs?
We talked about the first of the first three of 10 golf courses that we're going to get into in detail. We talked about cricket stick. We talked about the golf club up in Ohio, not to be confused with the country club, Neil. And we talked about Harbor town and the heritage and the Jack Nicholas of it all. And a spice push, a lot of good stuff in, in part one.
In part two here, like I said, we're going to focus on the last seven golf courses. We're going to get into some heavy hitters that people know, that people have watched on TV. It's a really fun lineup. We've got a lot more firsthand audio, a lot of good photos. It's going to be great. Can I just, before we... Go any farther.
Can I tell you what I couldn't stop thinking about in the dark while I was feeding my son Wes about 45 minutes ago? That Pete Dye gambled away his GI Bill money? Did he pay that? Was that a tall tale? Did he literally just leave college, throw the clubs in the creek and leave?
My impression was that it was not the entire GI Bill, but maybe like that month's allotment or that week's allotment or something. He wasn't very specific about it in the book, that part of it. But the story itself was so specific, him leaving his bride to be in the lurch on a playoff hole that I figure it has to be at least somewhat true.
yeah i mean yeah just that one i was just thinking i was like man that's a that's a big miss there like i know it all worked out for him but that was really stupid a lot of uh a lot of these stories don't really hold up to uh to kind of that first order of of poking holes you know so it's better to just kind of take him at face value and uh and i mean we talked about a lot but i was like man let me just double click right on that one in like the first 30 minutes did that was that what i heard okay
Again, if you missed part one, go back and listen to it if you're not going to do that. We're doing the Pete Dye and 10 golf courses. We've been trying to give Neil some song comps. I think we missed on Harbortown. I didn't really have a good one. Charlie, did you have a good one for Harbortown? My prompt was, let me read my prompt.
It was the single that really launched the career a little more refined and less bombastic than his later works. Possibly a prominent feature, prominent collab with Mr. Nicholas. I don't have a good answer for it, but I'm sure someone does. I mean, I'm going to first go to the Beatles. You know that. I think something like Something. You know, a little softer.
Like, oh, this George guy, he can really do it. But he's kind of in partnership with the rest of the squad. That comes to mind. I was thinking, nah, this isn't going to hold up in court. But Sting and the police. Maybe it's the police and then he goes off and becomes Sting on his own. I'm not familiar enough with the police to know where it's going to fall in the discography. Or who did, like...
Yeah. Who else was in Genesis? Maybe Phil Collins. Phil Collins. Yeah, I forget who played guitar. I'm trying to think of a star that had like a really good like, you know, group or collaboration and then just probably a more successful career on their own leaving behind Nicholas. But then you have to have like a power play. It almost has to be a duo that broke up.
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Chapter 3: How does Pete Dye approach golf course construction?
What was that dictator's name? Robert Trujillo? I think he died in the 60s. Is that right? Robert Trujillo is the bass player for Metallica. I think that's his name. No, Rafael Trujillo. There we go. That's a good mix-up, though. Yeah, this one could be battery, but that could be another good song comp. We referenced manual labor in the song comp, and this is why.
Pete says in the book that because the cost to import golf course construction machinery was prohibitive, allegedly, we had to rely entirely upon the machinery used for growing sugar cane. So manpower over horsepower. They had 300 Dominican workers molding the course. They dug a bunch of dirt a mile from the site and hauled it in on sugar cane carts pulled by oxen.
What I don't understand is that if we're talking $450,000 adjusted for inflation per day of construction, Gulf and Western provided Pete with a helicopter and 300- Couldn't get a tractor? Couldn't get a dozer in there? What are we talking about? Yeah, there are some questions to be asked. I do agree with that.
I mean, but just think about the – with no infrastructure around, like you got to build the whole – like the roads, the – I don't know. It's not just – you're not just building the golf course here. Totally. You're kind of building like the way that you see neighborhoods get built.
You got to build those cul-de-sacs first to get – I guess if you're not using heavy machinery, maybe not as much. So that's probably some of it too. No, but I mean, if you're building for, you know, infrastructure, people getting in and out and all that stuff is. Yeah, I agree. All that stuff. I mean, on that on that note, there's you were there, Neil. It's it's very rocky.
There's there's boulders everywhere. So there were boulders lying in all over these like.
proposed fairways so to Charlie's point like the this team of 300 people would just have to get all these rocks out of the fairway like huge rocks get them loaded on the canes on sugar cane carts and get them pulled away and then they would stack them into these like really high walls that you can see those big stone walls that you see in Casa de Campo and
When they were finished, that wall ended up being like nearly two miles long, contained more than 20,000 tons of rock, which is all, again, like moved by hand. I mean, it's so much work to get that done.
So flashing back to our, you know, our, our peak contains multitudes, pizza man of contradictions, uh, discussion from, from part one, Pete and the team came up with this idea of using, I think it's Casa. Is that how you, is that how you say it? 100% sure. which is a byproduct of sugar cane as kind of the chief ingredient of the topsoil.
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Chapter 4: What makes Teeth of the Dog a significant course?
Another unidentified player said the 17th hole was a ridiculous piece of shit, reminiscent of some sort of putt-putt carnival course. JC Sneed famously said that Pete had, quote, ruined a perfectly good swamp, said the course was 90% horse manure and 10% luck. Jack Nicklaus came, you know, he stopped short of any personal attacks on his guy.
Pete said, I've never been very good at stopping a five iron on the hood of a car. And Pete said, the pros came very close to killing me. We are, of course, talking about the stadium course at TPC. I thought you were going to say Kiowa. We are not there yet. We are talking about the Sawgrass, which opened in 1982. A song comp here. Here's what Charlie's asking for.
The arrival of a new direction among the body of work, arena rock, music made for a huge audience, controversial at first, ultimately revered for what it is. I read the Stephen Hyden book about Bruce Springsteen last year, two years ago. Born in the USA. Comes to mind. Very misunderstood, mischaracterized song coming right off in Nebraska.
Kind of a stripped down, you know, hands in the dirt type of record into just let's see if we can fill up some stadiums. I would. You know what? I hit you with Coldplay. Okay. Some good early stuff that critics raved about and then just kind of like a victim of their own success, kind of like, oh, man, these guys are high on their own supply. It's just too much. Sure.
And then the arena stuff, that's what I'd hit you with. Charlie, you got anything? no i i i'm fine i'm fine with those takes i i spent so much time with with mr die here i just delighted in the idea despite my my career and background in music i enjoyed writing these prompts and just gonna leave it to the people to select and listen kind of similar to tpc you know old play comes on now For sure.
Fix you? I'm like, oh, that's kind of a banger. Forget it. But also maybe got a little too polished in the recent iterations. Maybe could use a little return to its roots. You know, I could listen to that. That's good. Well, of course, the story of TPC Sawgrass begins with Dean Beeman. Dean is now 88 years old, still doing great.
Charlie got to spend some good time with him when he was down in Jacksonville. But quick walkthrough. Hell yeah, Charlie. God, I... He's like one of the unsung hitters of golf. Totally agree. Shout out to Adam Shupak's book. I believe Golf's Driving Force about Beeman. Quick, quick run through his CV. Yet another successful insurance executive, which is great.
Good player in his own right, certainly. Won the USAM twice. Won the British AM once. Always a good feather in the cap. American going over and winning the British AM. won on the PGA Tour four times after turning pro in 1967. He was on a winning Walker Cup team, and he was the second commissioner of the PGA Tour, serving for 20 years, 20 formative years, 20 big years, 1974 to 1994.
Overall, just kind of a killer, man. A guy who I think had the respect of the players, you know, was a player himself. but also like really built a tour, great business mind who kind of foundation. Yeah, exactly. Um, Charlie, anything else that you kind of took away from spending some time with them? This was early in my reporting on the projects.
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Chapter 5: What are the key themes in Pete Dye's design philosophy?
This might be my platform going in the next 20 years. It's like, let's slow these greens down. What are we doing? Slow down the tempo. I stand with Pete on this. Bring back slope. Exactly right. So it kind of scaled these down a little bit compared to some of the other designs, which I think probably speaks, this is my reading of it, but I mean...
probably speaks to why the course is like 97% the same as it was when it opened, right? I mean, this wasn't one that they've had to tinker with quite as much.
Chapter 6: How did environmental factors influence course design?
Yeah. Another thing that I will join Pete on is going back to this more rustic, rugged look, if you will. The bones of the course are 97% the same, I think was a quote from Bob Patton, the director of golf there now. But when the course first went up, similar to Sawgrass, it was so natural and alive looking. And to be fair, there was no housing initially.
And so the housing that surrounds it now changes the overall tapestry of what you're looking at. But it's become a much more perfectly manicured style of golf course, along with this like I don't want to say paint too broad of a brush that everybody's chasing Augusta, but there's an element of that that a lot of people have talked to me about.
And, you know, some people have different feelings about, like, should we, yeah, should we, like, rough up the edges a little bit? It's just like Pete Beckman Urbana.
Chapter 7: What challenges did Pete Dye face during construction?
He wants it to look green. That's right.
Exactly.
Much like Alice Dye, a micro version here, if we're going to mention Long Cove, we need to talk about LaHunta Stovall, I think. Charlie, who is LaHunta Stovall? LaHunta Stovall, by all accounts, was a menace. She was the woman who hit the first tee shot on number 10. It's one of the early members at Long Cove.
And I've got some tape from Bob Patton, the director of golf there, talking about LaHunta.
And Alice was out here every day.
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Chapter 8: What memorable incidents occurred during the building of Whistling Straits?
I mean, Alice was another one who really deserves some credit for this golf course. She would come out at the end of the day and look at something that Pete had done. And she'd say, now, how are the ladies going to play this? Or how are the high end? You know, I mean, she would make points that hit home with Pete. To that point, can you tell me who LaHunta Stovall was? LaHunta Stovall, exactly.
So two of our first members were Louie and Lahana Stovall. In fact, they built the first house in Long Cove. And Lahana was a good player. She had an interesting background. She was a ball of fire. She had kind of a gruff voice. She had one of those kind of, but she loved golf. She was a golf nut. I mean, she was a single digit handicapper, I think, in those early years.
And of course, Alice was a very good player, an accomplished player. And Alice and Lahana kind of hit it off. And when they were out reviewing Pete's work at the end of the day or whatever, Alice would say, you know, Pete, how is Lahana going to play this hole? And that was kind of where that came from. We actually have a tournament at the club every year named after Lahana Stovall.
Just circling back to our first episode, I think, of just, you know, good players, but learn to have the average player in mind at all turns. I love it. I also need to do a deeper dive on Lujano Stovall based on some of the maybe off-the-record stories that were in there. I think moving on, this is another one, you know, we're landing the plane here on Long Cove, but...
I'm not going to set it up. I think just just play the Bob Patton story about the top 100 rankings and the committee and and what happens when the committee gets involved.
we had a kind of a funny situation where we were top 100 golf course for years. And at some point we fell out of the top golf digest, top 100, you know, course rankings are a source of frustration. It's, you know, it's an interesting thing and it's, but some people take it way too seriously. And we dropped out of the top 100 at some point.
And, and of course, like a lot of clubs do, you know, when you have a problem, what do you do? You form a committee, right? Because we have a lot of experts here, of course, on these things. And we formed a committee. And there were a couple of type A strong personalities on the committee.
And they created a list of things that they felt like we needed to do in order to get ourselves back into the top 100. We need to put a bunker on the left side of the first fairway. It's wide open over there. And there's no need to be straight. Just different things that they came up with. And I kept saying, you know, guys, you know, this is fine.
You can do this, but you got to remember it's Pete's golf course. It's not yours. So we're not doing anything without Pete's blessing. So they create this list and then they asked me to get Pete. So I had to call Pete and he happened to be, it was sometime soon after that, he happened to be in the area and he said, okay, I'll come by and
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