An 11-year-old sent us on a mission...
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What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
ABC Listen. Podcasts, radio, news, music and more. Why did Matthew Flinders write such saucy letters to his best friend George Bass?
Who really chopped off Chopper's ears?
And why did they name a swimming pool after an Australian Prime Minister who drowned?
These are the kind of historical questions we'll be asking on The Dead Can't Sue.
So join me, Alicia Sibbins.
And me, Lee Boucher.
Find it by searching for The Dead Can't Sue on ABC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi.
Hey, this is Ellie.
Yes.
It's lovely to meet you.
Lovely to meet you too.
So is this the Ellie that wrote me a lovely letter?
Yes, I did. That's me.
For people listening to this, do you want to tell me about that letter, what it is you wrote?
Well, I wrote a letter to you to say that I have a question about something that I've grown up with. It's a nursery rhyme and it's Ringa Ringa Rosie. It's a pretty popular nursery rhyme and I just was wondering about all the lyrics and just... always thought that it had something more than just a kid's nursery rhyme behind it.
Do you mind singing it for me, Ellie?
Okay. Ring-a-ring-a-rosie, a pocket full of posies, a tissue, a tissue, we all fall down.
So, Ellie, what is it about that nursery rhyme that's caught your interest?
Well, just the lyrics of it and how it's come, well, from what I know, It's come from the Black Plague, like the Black Death, and that we're still using it today, but it might have saved lives because maybe it was a warning.
So you'd like us to find out if that's true?
Yes.
All right. And so the hints are all within the lyrics. That's what's standing out to you.
Exactly.
Okay, Ellie, we are going to go investigate and we will report back.
Okay, sounds exciting.
Yes, my name is Mark Fidel, and thanks to 11-year-old Ellie, you and I, we're going down a rabbit hole to find out where that nursery rhyme, Ring-a-Ring-a-Rosie, really began. Because there's so much more to it than you might think. But is she right? Is it inspired by the plague? Well, there's a story there, and no one saw it coming.
Did you ever play Ring-a-Ring-a-Rosie as a child?
Now, I was trying to remember this. I don't know that I actually did, but my little girl, Petrova, whose birthday it is today, actually, she's seven. Happy birthday.
What sparked the investigation into Ring-a-Ring-a-Rosie?
And she plays it with her toys and go round and round in the circle and fall down.
So this is Amelia Hugh Morgan. And look, I don't normally describe what the guests look like, but I just want to paint a picture of Amelia for you because Amelia is an explosion of colour and energy when we talk over the internet. From her colourful wooden scarf to her vibrant glasses, massive smile. Actually, you know what she is? She's the quintessential arts teacher.
I'm a senior lecturer in illustration in Cardiff School of Art and Design, which is in Wales in the U.K., I've been doing it for a very long time. So I've been teaching since my sort of mid twenties, but my fascination is always about how illustration actually really impacts on people and how we understand ourselves within society, but often in a way that nobody really notices, which is why this is actually quite an interesting thing. And my interest is also in childhood.
Amelia, you were made for this. There are multiple versions of Ring-a-Ring-a-Rosie, but I'm wondering, would it be okay if you just recite the nursery rhyme that most of us would recognize?
Okay, of course they can. So ring a ring of roses, a pocket full of poses, a tissue, a tissue, we all fall down. And that's the kind of the small version that most people use and they don't normally go on after that. It's that and then you will fall down and then you might go around and do that again. And sometimes it's sung and sometimes it's said, like with a lot of nursery rhymes, they can be both. That's what you can still hear in playgrounds today.
So Amelia, we got a... We got a letter from a lovely young girl who wanted to know if that rhyme was about the plague, that the a tissue, a tissue, sneezing, fall down, we all die. So my question to you, Amelia, is, is that true?
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Chapters
5 chapters
1
What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0:00–3:19
2
What sparked the investigation into Ring-a-Ring-a-Rosie?
3:19–8:15
3
What is the historical significance of the nursery rhyme?
8:15–16:22
4
How did the nursery rhyme become associated with the plague?
16:22–23:11
5
What are the different versions of Ring-a-Ring-a-Rosie?
23:11–25:37