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Planet Money

Can transforming neighborhoods help kids escape poverty?

28 Jan 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

0.031 - 27.382 Unknown

Only 11% of rental units allow big dogs. But what exactly is a big dog? The answer could mean the difference between life and death. Control F is a new podcast about the data that companies and the government use to shape our daily lives. Listen to Control F from KUOW in Seattle, a member of the NPR network. Hey, big news. Planet Money is going on tour to promote our first ever book.

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27.723 - 45.428 Unknown

It comes out in April and we'll be celebrating in about a dozen cities. There's a limited edition tote bag that is included with your ticket while supplies last. Details, dates, and how to get your ticket at planetmoneybook.com. The link is in the show notes. This is Planet Money from NPR.

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48.732 - 57.125 Greg Rosalski

Wysina Williams still remembers the day she went to go watch a public housing tower near where she lived in North Philadelphia get knocked down.

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57.585 - 62.893 Wysina Williams

I assumed that it was going to fall over. So I don't know how, like you heard dynamites like six times go off.

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62.913 - 76.714 Keith Romer

Then it was like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. The tower was part of a development called Cambridge Plaza. Wysina and some friends had walked over to see just what happened when you blew up a 14-story building.

83.022 - 94.706 Wysina Williams

We was like, oh, it's going to come down on us and all this other stuff. No, actually, it came down, but it came. That's probably so much. That's why they say so much smoke comes up because it just like smashed itself down.

94.866 - 116.415 Greg Rosalski

That demolition was part of this massive federal program started in the early 1990s called Hope Six. Congress wanted to do something to deal with all of these incredibly rundown public housing projects around the country. Hope Six provided money to demolish hundreds of those projects and, in a lot of cases, to replace them with newer and better buildings.

116.755 - 123.502 Keith Romer

Wysina, she herself lived in public housing. She grew up in a low-rise development nearby called the Richard Allen Homes.

124.103 - 126.065 Greg Rosalski

What were the Richard Allen Homes like?

Chapter 2: What was the HOPE VI program and its purpose?

175.314 - 181.103 Wysina Williams

Our windows open. We have fresh air. We control our heat. I had my own space. I loved it.

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181.083 - 199.291 Greg Rosalski

From 1993 to 2010, 262 different public housing projects around the country were knocked down and replaced with Hope Six money. So think like Cabrini Green in Chicago, the Desire Housing Projects in New Orleans, and, yeah, the Richard Allen Homes in Philadelphia.

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199.973 - 209.267 Greg Rosalski

Beat-up old projects were knocked down and, in a lot of cases, replaced with public housing that was newer and safer and more connected to the neighborhoods that surrounded them.

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209.416 - 225.18 Keith Romer

But there wasn't enough funding to redo all of public housing in the United States. Some folks got to live in newer, better buildings. Others, they were stuck with the older, worse buildings. And in that way, Hope Six created a kind of nationwide experiment.

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225.16 - 246.291 Greg Rosalski

This experiment, it had the potential to change how we help people in public housing, but also how we help people in all these other kinds of low-income neighborhoods. Our country is really segregated economically. Hope Six tried to reverse that. It tried to transform neighborhoods with really concentrated poverty into neighborhoods with mixed incomes.

246.372 - 260.497 Keith Romer

And if that approach worked to lift people out of poverty, maybe it could become a model for poor neighborhoods all over the country. But no one really knew whether that HOPE VI experiment actually worked. Until now.

261.038 - 264.685 Greg Rosalski

Can you just read the name of your study? The title?

265.492 - 273.767 Raj Chetty

creating high-opportunity neighborhoods, evidence from the HOPE VI program. Did you get a lot of evidence? We did.

273.807 - 282.563 Greg Rosalski

The evidence gatherer here, Harvard economist Raj Chetty. Should people keep listening to this podcast to hear all the evidence?

Chapter 3: How did HOPE VI impact the lives of residents?

352.092 - 356.839 Greg Rosalski

He's been on the show before. Greg, you are something of a Raj Chetty superfan.

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357.443 - 361.293 Keith Romer

Yeah, I guess, Keith, some people have Tom Brady. I have Raj Chetty.

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361.593 - 365.723 Greg Rosalski

Greg, I'm just going to play the tape of you greeting Raj when he came into the Zoom with us.

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366.405 - 369.413 Keith Romer

Well, if it is not the Beyonce of economics.

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369.773 - 371.217 Raj Chetty

Hey there, Greg. How are you?

373.087 - 392.747 Keith Romer

So Raj is kind of an icon. He leads this research group at Harvard called Opportunity Insights. They do world-class research on really important problems. You know, they try to figure out what actually works to fight poverty, reduce inequality, and make the American dream like a reality for low-income people.

393.027 - 397.812 Greg Rosalski

And there is one big factor that shows up again and again and again in their work.

397.832 - 410.185 Raj Chetty

We found through a series of prior papers that... The neighborhood in which you grow up, the block in which you live, the school you attend, really matters for your life outcomes.

410.746 - 416.692 Greg Rosalski

Probably their most famous research looked at what happens when low-income kids move to more affluent neighborhoods.

Chapter 4: What were the outcomes of the HOPE VI experiment?

1057.277 - 1071.478 Matt Steger

And in her experience, it was the sites that were located near more economic opportunity, near more affluent areas where there were some economic resources to tap into that that's where she thought that the program was most successful.

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1072.018 - 1082.815 Greg Rosalski

And Matt was like, huh, what if we went back over our data and grouped Hope 6 developments according to how well off the neighborhoods around them were?

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1083.416 - 1097.558 Matt Steger

And so, you know, out of that discussion, we took that, you know, back to the data and looked in the data, and that's exactly what we found and turned out to be kind of a key turning point in our ability to figure out, like, what was actually going on in terms of driving the mechanisms.

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1097.779 - 1117.909 Keith Romer

So just to underline a little bit what Matt is saying here, not all hope six developments were created equal as far as this whole income mixing idea went. If a hope six development was near richer neighborhoods, the kids in public housing there tended to do really well. If surrounding neighborhoods were poor though, the kids in hope six development saw no gains.

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1118.289 - 1126.514 Matt Steger

It's only in cases where the kids who live nearby had, uh, had better outcomes were from more affluent families. do we really see meaningful gains of the program?

1126.874 - 1146.707 Keith Romer

This strongly suggests that Hope 6 caused better outcomes, not because it improved the housing or got rid of lead paint or whatever. It suggests that these new neighborhoods fostered more social integration between kids from different backgrounds. When that crucial ingredient was missing, the Hope 6 kids did not see better outcomes.

1146.755 - 1159.174 Greg Rosalski

And they were even able to show that the Hope Six kids really were interacting more with the more well-off kids. They were more connected to each other on Facebook and more likely to live together as adults.

1159.514 - 1164.602 Matt Steger

And that is what appeared to be central in driving the long-run gains in their outcomes.

1165.203 - 1169.269 Greg Rosalski

So it's not the architecture, it's like who you're interacting with.

Chapter 5: How does neighborhood integration affect children's futures?

1613.911 - 1615.834 Wysina Williams

They will make more. They will succeed. Yes.

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1616.414 - 1632.572 Greg Rosalski

Wysina's son turns 30 this year, the age Raj's team looked at to see how Hope Six Kids' economic lives turned out. Her son, he's engaged, he's got a steady job driving a semi-truck, and he's studying to get certified as an HVAC technician.

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1638.256 - 1651.757 Greg Rosalski

If you want to learn more about the study in this show, Greg also wrote an amazing Planet Money newsletter about it that does an incredible deep dive on the research. You can sign up for that at npr.org slash planetmoneynewsletter.

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1652.238 - 1662.795 Keith Romer

Planet Money, we're also putting out a book and we're going on a book tour. You can see us in person in April. We're going coast to coast. Details at planetmoneybook.com.

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1662.775 - 1675.531 Greg Rosalski

Today's episode was produced by Luis Gallo with help from Sam Yellow Horse Kessler. It was edited by Jess Jang, fact-checked by Ciara Juarez, and engineered by Jimmy Keeley. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer.

1675.891 - 1677.353 Keith Romer

Special thanks to Larry Vail.

1677.674 - 1684.362 Greg Rosalski

I'm Greg Rosalski. And I'm Keith Romer. This is NPR. Thanks for listening.

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