Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Democratic Senator Mark Kelly can be blunt, particularly on subjects he knows about. He served decades in the Navy, flying dozens of combat missions. Also, he's an astronaut. So he has had a lot to say over the last few months about how the Trump administration has been using the military at home and abroad. Little of it positive. I'm Hannah Rosen. This is Radio Atlantic.
We could start in a lot of different places with Mark Kelly on the subject of Trump and the U.S. military, appointing Pete Hegseth as the defense secretary, actions in Venezuela. But we'll start with this week's news. The Trump administration saying that using the military to take Greenland is an option.
It would probably be the biggest mistake any president has made in the history of this country. For us to threaten them, especially with force — We're just going to take your stuff. We're going to take your territory. I mean, is that who we've become? That's Russia. I mean, we are not that kind of a nation. Kelly had his own personal run-in with the U.S.
military this week, or at least with Hegseth. It concerned a video that Kelly made along with five other Democratic lawmakers who had also served in the military or the intelligence community. They released it a couple of months ago, and its intended audience was people who are currently serving.
This administration is pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens. Like us, you all swore an oath. The video came out two months into the U.S. 's military strikes on alleged drug boats, strikes that many have called illegal.
In the video, Kelly and others say that, quote, threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad, but from right here at home. Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders. You can refuse illegal orders. Well, someone did not like the sound of that. Now, that is the statement right there from the president.
It says in part, quote, it's called seditious behavior at the highest level. Each one of these traitors to our country should be arrested and put on trial. Kelly issued a joint statement. On Truth Social, Trump kept posting and wrote, quote, seditious behavior punishable by death. Senator Kelly responded. President Trump is trying to silence me, threatening me. to kill me for saying what is true.
And he sent his secretary of defense after me. This week, Hegseth sent the details of the intended punishment. He announced that his department had initiated proceedings to reduce Kelly's retirement grade, which could mean a reduction in rank and pension pay. Echoing Trump, Hegseth called Kelly's remarks seditious. So I started my interview with Kelly by talking about that.
There are people who can look at what the administration has done and say, what's the big deal? A senator made this video, the president didn't like it, and they're docking his pension pay.
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Chapter 2: What warning does Senator Mark Kelly give about military force on Greenland?
So why is it a big deal? Like, what's unusual about this action? Well, first of all, he said I should be hanged, executed. If you're looking for evidence why we needed to put out that video, that's You know, one valid point, we have a president who is rather unhinged and doesn't like people speaking out in a way that he does not agree.
And in this case, we were just reminding service members of what is lawful, telling them that they should not follow illegal orders. It's something we're all trained on. We may not be reminded of it frequently. And we had some serious concerns about what this president might do. In 2016, he called for the U.S. military as a candidate. He said the U.S.
military should be killing the family members of terrorists. That means killing women and children who are not involved. I mean, how horrific is that? And then started talking about shooting U.S. citizens who are protesters in the legs, sending troops into U.S. cities. and using those cities for training for the U.S. military. These are things that are dangerous.
So we put this video out as a friendly reminder that you do not follow illegal orders. When the law and orders are in conflict, you stick with the law. It's a pretty simple message. So getting to the point about demoting me, taking away part of my pension, I guess what they realized is they would not do well
in front of a jury because for a while there they were threatening to court-martial me they figured out that wasn't a good option because they probably knew they would lose so this is a administrative option but i'm going to fight this with everything i have because it's wrong and it by the way it sends a powerful and chilling message to retired service members to ex-military to people on active duty that you cannot say anything about this government
Or what? So that's why the average American should care? Absolutely. We all have First Amendment constitutional rights of not only freedom of speech, but freedom to speak out against the U.S.
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Chapter 3: How has the Trump administration's military strategy been criticized?
government and to its leadership. They don't like that. They're trying to send a message.
Chapter 4: What was the significance of the video released by Senator Kelly and other lawmakers?
This isn't just about me anymore. I mean, this is a message to the American people. shut up or there are consequences. And we cannot let that stand. So I'll fight this with everything I have. Now, you and your colleagues published that video back in November. The secretary announced this reprisal against you two days after the U.S. bombed Venezuela, captured Maduro.
Do you think there's any message in the timing of that? Well, here's something interesting on timing, right? This wasn't just about the video. If you read their censure letter to me, they go all the way back to June. and said there were things that I said that they didn't like. They are pointing to my criticism of them for firing admirals and generals. And here's why it was critical.
They fired people that I confirmed, and they fired them because of the color of their skin or because they were women. That's pretty clear to people. And I criticized Pete Hegseth and the administration over that. They point to that. as a reason why I am now censured and I should be demoted because I said something.
They also pointed to the fact that I said I will always stand up for the Constitution as if that's an objectionable thing for them. So yeah, I mean, this is not just about me anymore. This is about all of our rights under the Constitution. So you're a senator and you have some power. I want to put you in the mind of, say, when you were a younger person in the military.
If you were young and in the military now, would you have refused any of the administration's orders?
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Chapter 5: How does Senator Kelly view the legality of military strikes in the Caribbean?
Well, I mean, it depends on what the order was, right? I mean, I'm a guy who I flew combat missions, 39 combat missions in the first Gulf War. I was almost shot down multiple times at a missile blow up next to my airplane. On two occasions, I was ordered to sink ships. And I knew at the time that that was the right thing to do.
It was legal for me to go into Kuwait Harbor and sink this Osa-2 missile patrol boat, or in the case of the second one, this Polnokni troop carrier that was Iraqi. They were both Iraqi ships. It was very clear. I had no question about that. If under different circumstances, I was given an order to do something
that any reasonable person would understand as illegal, yeah, I would have said I'm not going to do that. That's what we're all trained to do. So what about what actually happened, which is the second shot against the Venezuelan boat that killed the two sailors? Like, is it clear that was an illegal order? Is that an order? I saw that video.
I've been in a brief, you know, in a classified setting on the details of that second strike on that first vote. And I still have a lot of questions.
It would be a positive thing for the American people to see that video and to get briefed on it by the United States military, because transparency of what our Department of Defense is doing is I think it's something that is fundamental to the way we do things. I mean, aren't we supposed to be the good guys here? I continue to have questions about that decision to strike that boat a second time.
When you look at the rules of warfare, one of the examples that is cited in the manual of war, the law of armed conflict, is that for shipwrecked crew members, that you have an obligation to rescue them. And in this circumstance, that did not happen. Now, DOD gives their rationale for why they did not do that. And it is questionable at best.
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Chapter 6: What are the implications of censure in military and political contexts?
And do you know what in the moment you would have done, like as a person who served for a long time? Because it's different in retrospect, like looking at it. It's always different, right? And for somebody who's been in that environment where the bullets are flying, and the missiles blowing up next to your airplane. It is dynamic. It is chaotic. You have to make decisions quickly.
What myself and my colleagues were talking about were those obvious things, where a reasonable person in those circumstances would know that what you are asking to be done is unlawful, not the stuff that's like on the line. So is there anything that you would count as clearly unlawful of the many things that have happened over these last few months?
I continue to have a lot of questions about how this Department of Defense, under the leadership of Pete Hegseth, and let me repeat something I've said multiple times, this guy is not qualified for this job. I did not vote for him. And we had to have the vice president come over to break a tie to get him across the finish line.
By the way, after a lot of arm twisting, I think that's very fair to say by the White House of my Republican colleagues who were hesitant, very hesitant for good reasons. He shouldn't be anywhere near the front office of the Pentagon. I even question whether he should be in the building. You know what? So I've heard you say he's unqualified a lot of times.
Can I ask you something I'm really curious about? What say you and your Navy people were talking about him? How would you talk about him like internally, like privately? How would people describe someone like that who are military guys? Like what would they say about him? Well, he's a guy who served in multiple, you know, guard units. I thank him for his service to this country.
He doesn't have the experience to run an organization of this size. He doesn't have management experience at a high level. He doesn't have policy experience creating policy. It's hard to find somebody that checks all the boxes, you know, to be Secretary of Defense because it is a it's perhaps after being president of the United States, the hardest job in the country.
It's hard to find somebody that checks every box. Problem with Pete Hegseth, he doesn't check any of the boxes. Zero. I'm shocked that the president nominated him for this. Why would you put this guy in this job? When we come back, what happens if the U.S. were to take Greenland by force? That's after the break. I want to talk to you about how this administration is using the military.
This week, the White House put out a statement that in the range of options to acquire Greenland, utilizing the military is an option. How concerned are you about these threats to Greenland? Months ago, I was not concerned at all. I thought it was just typical bluster from Donald Trump wanting to show people he's a strong man and he can do what he wants and take what he wants.
You know, after seeing what happened in Venezuela and the latest comments, not only by Donald Trump, but people in the administration, and now even some of my colleagues talking about why Greenland should be under the control of the United States. First of all, Denmark is a member of NATO and an ally of ours. If we have concerns about security in the Arctic, we currently have U.S. service members
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