Radiolab

Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl

03 Oct 2025

45 min

7644 words

10 speakers

03 Oct 2025

Audio

Description

This is the story of a three-year-old girl and the highest court in the land. The Supreme Court case Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl is a legal battle that has entangled a biological father, a heart-broken couple, and the tragic history of Native American children taken from their families. We originally released this story back in 2013, when that girl’s fate was still in the balance of various legal decisions. We thought now was a good time to bring the story back, because the Act at the center of the story is still being questioned.When then-producer Tim Howard first read about this case, it struck him as a sad but seemingly straightforward custody dispute. But, as he started talking to lawyers and historians and the families involved in the case, it became clear that it was much more than that. Because Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl challenges parts of the 1978 Indian Child Welfare Act, this case puts one little girl at the center of a storm of legal intricacies, Native American tribal culture, and heart-wrenching personal stakes.LATERAL CUTS:What Up Holmes?The GatekeeperEPISODE CREDITS:Reported by - Tim HowardProduced by - Tim HowardEPISODE CITATIONS (so many):Background and Reporting from a range of different perspectives"Couple forced to give up daughter"An introductory article by Allyson Bird, for the Charleston, SC Post and Courier"Supreme Court Takes on Indian Child Welfare Act in Baby Veronica Case" A report for Indian Country Today by Suzette Brewer, who has also written a two-part series on the case."Supreme Court hears Indian child custody case"Tulsa World article by Michael Overall which includes Dusten Brown's account of his break-up with Veronica's mother, and his understanding about his custodial rights. Plus photos of Dusten, Veronica, and Dusten's wife Robin in their Oklahoma home_._Randi Kaye's report for CNN on the background of the case, and interviews with Melanie and Matt Capobianco: "Video: Adoption custody battle for Veronica"Nina Totenberg’s report for NPR: "Adoption Case Brings Rare Family Law Dispute To High Court"Reporting by NPR's Laura Sullivan and Amy Walters on current ICWA violations in South Dakota.Dr. Phil's coverage: "Adoption Controversy: Battle over Baby Veronica"Analysis and EditorialsOp-ed by Veronica's birth mom, Christy Maldonado, in the Washington Post: "Baby Veronica belongs with her adoptive parents"Colorlines report "The Cherokee Nation’s Baby Girl Goes on Trial:"Americans remain dangerously uninformed about the basics of tribal sovereignty, and what it means for the relationship between the United States and Native tribes and nations.The Weekly Standard's Ethan Epstein argues that ICWA is "being used to tear [families] apart]: "Mistreating Native American Children"Andrew Cohen considers the trickier legal aspects of the case for the Atlantic in "Indian Affairs, Adoption, and Race: The Baby Veronica Case Comes to Washington:"A little girl is at the heart of a big case at the Supreme Court next week, a racially-tinged fight over Native American rights and state custody laws.Marcia Zug's breakdown of the case (Marica Zug is an associate professor of law at the University of South Carolina School of Law who she specializes in family and American Indian law) "Doing What’s Best for the Tribe" for Slate:Two-year-old “Baby Veronica” was ripped from the only home she’s known. The court made the right decision.Marcia Zug for the Michigan Law Review: "Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl: Two-and-a-Half WAys To Destroy Indian Law"From Walter Olson, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute’s Center for Constitutional Studies: "The Constitutional Flaws of the Indian Child Welfare Act"Rapid City Journal columnist David Rooks poses a set of tough questions about ICWA: "ROOKS: Questions unasked, unanswered"Editorial coverage from The New York Times:"A Wrenching Adoption Case""Adoptive Parents vs. Tribal Rights"Contemporary, Historic, and Legal Source MaterialsAdoptive Couple v. Baby Girl on the SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States) BlogAudio from the oral arguments in the Supreme CourtOfficial website for ICWA (the federal Indian Child Welfare Act)1974 Hearings Before the Subcommittee on Indian Affairs "on problems that American Indian families face in raising their children and how these problems are affected by federal action or inaction." PDFThe National Indian Child Welfare AssociationThe First Nations Repatriation Institute, which works with and does advocacy for adopteesSignup for our newsletter!! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)!Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing [email protected] support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

Featured

Dustin Brown

Tajinder Singh

Lulu Miller (host) / Radiolab outro announcer

Marcia Zug

Michael Evan Nohart

Jad Abumrad (host) / main Radiolab host voice

Unknown

Tim Howard (producer) / narrator

Melanie or Matt Capobianco (Capobiancos) — Adoptive parent (Capobianco spouse)

Marsha/Marcia (law professor lines) / legal commentator (ambiguous) — Marcia Zug / legal voice

Transcription

Full Episode

2.14 - 28.75 Jad Abumrad (host) / main Radiolab host voice

Hey Radiolab, this is Lulu. Today we're bringing you a story that begins with a very personal heartbreak. One that when you examine it, pull it up, you see is attached to this web of complex laws and decisions. It's this one very personal story with the potential to affect three million people. Just a note that we originally reported this back in 2013.

29.992 - 51.17 Jad Abumrad (host) / main Radiolab host voice

And in it, people use the word Indian to refer to indigenous Americans. That, of course, is a term that some folks who are indigenous use to describe themselves, but not all. So we want to acknowledge that one term is being used here to describe a huge culturally diverse group of people. I'm very excited for you to hear this piece, which, as you'll see, is still just as relevant today.

51.191 - 61.688 Jad Abumrad (host) / main Radiolab host voice

So here we go. Adoptive couple v. baby girl. Wait, you're listening?

61.708 - 61.808

Okay.

61.828 - 62.029 Melanie or Matt Capobianco (Capobiancos) — Adoptive parent (Capobianco spouse)

All right.

62.049 - 64.274 Marsha/Marcia (law professor lines) / legal commentator (ambiguous) — Marcia Zug / legal voice

Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab.

65.137 - 69.407 Marcia Zug

Radiolab. From WNYC.

74.23 - 81.224 Jad Abumrad (host) / main Radiolab host voice

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krulwich. This is Radiolab. The podcast. And today on the podcast, we are going to venture into new territory for us.

81.786 - 94.652 Tim Howard (producer) / narrator

We have the story of a little girl who became a very, very big deal. How big a deal did this little girl become? A very big deal to about 500-something nations.

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