Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is Giles Brandreth and Harriet Jane. We're together with you again for another episode of More Rosebud. Cue the music. We're here, we're ready, and we're quite keen. Welcome to More Rosebud. I'm Giles Brandreth. And with me, well, actually not actually with me today, but on the other side of London, because our More Rosebud and our Rosebud, they come to you from London, England.
And I am in South West London. My name is Giles Brandreth. And in, is it North London that I find you?
Yes, North London.
North London, North and South London. I used to live north of the River Thames all my life. And when I had to move south of the River Thames, I felt so embarrassed. I felt ashamed. Have you always lived north of the river?
No, I used to live in Brixton, Herne Hill, various South London places. I love South London, actually. Yeah, I'm very open-minded about areas of London. I think I've lived in all four, east, west, south and north.
You are a very open-minded person. I am. Fantastic. And I'm becoming more open-minded.
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Chapter 2: How did Matt Haig's childhood shape his perspective on mental health?
In fact, I was on television yesterday morning and the subject came up. We were discussing people reading raunchy books on the tube.
Oh, that's a good subject.
It was a good subject because apparently a lot of people wouldn't do this, though they would admit to reading raunchy books.
Yes.
Is it because they don't want to get hot under the collar on the district line, which is fair enough, I think.
Yeah, because on the district line, you sometimes do only because the air conditioning is so poor on an old line like that. Whereas on the Elizabeth line, it's always cool. I, as you know, as a child, loved the London Underground and went round and round on the Circle line. Oh, yeah. It was also, I confessed on the program, where when in 1960, D.H.
Lawrence's then notorious novel, Lady Chatterley's Lover, was first published. And I, regular listeners to our diaries, which we're not doing today, that's next week. will know, as a boy, I sent off for a copy when it was published. It had been banned from the 1920s up until about 1960.
An unexpurgated version had not appeared in print, but Penguin Books published one, got away with it, and I wrote off. And a copy was sent to my school, was seen by the headmaster, confiscated it, but I was given it back at the end of term. And I took the book back to London where I lived. And I didn't feel I could be seen to read it at home. Where am I going to go to read the book?
And I was only a little boy, you know, I was 11 or 12. So I didn't feel like I could go and sit in the lion's corner house with a cup of tea and a penguin biscuit. I didn't feel like I could go to the museums. They were among my other haunts, you know, the Natural History Museum, the Victorian Albert Museum. I didn't feel like I could go there. Yeah. So I thought, I'll go on the underground.
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Chapter 3: What experiences led Matt to struggle with depression and anxiety?
Something else that we discussed on the programme yesterday was this, and it's relevant to our special guest today, because we're not here to talk about saucy books. So can I ask you, before we go on to what I want to say, where are you on the saucy book arena?
I've just read such a good one.
Ah.
I haven't got on... You know what everyone's into now, which is fairy... Is it fairy porn?
Oh, fairy porn.
Yeah. I haven't got on to that, but you never know.
This is fairies and demons and... Yeah.
A mixture between fantasy and erotic, which I guess is a good crossover. But no, the one I read recently, I might have mentioned it before, is called All Fours. Yeah. By Miranda July. It's so fun. It's raunchy, but very clever, very original and very funny. And it's brilliant. I highly recommend it to anyone listening.
Have you finished it?
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Chapter 4: How did Matt's relationships influence his mental health journey?
So we're going to discover what his family's story was like. But the point is, it was a blessed union, at least at the time of conception.
Jolly good.
But like many of our Rosebud podcasts, life is more complicated. We don't want just black and white stories where people are extremely happy or extremely sad. Life is full of complexity. That is what I have learned from you, Harriet J. Good. This has been a very strange few years for me.
I know today I'm talking all the time, but actually what I've discovered in the last three years is it's more interesting to listen than to talk. We're gonna be listening in a moment to a remarkable writer called Matt Haig.
If people have heard of him, probably the first time they heard of him is because he had a number one bestseller called Reasons to Stay Alive, which I think, given the title, I'm not surprised, was about 45 weeks in the bestseller list.
I have to say, I found this both a hugely enjoyable conversation, at times a very moving conversation, and another conversation that for me was a learning experience. I am honoured by the openness that people show in our conversations. I think that Matt Haig is a really delightful human being. I now respect him as well as like him.
Yeah. Oh, and I should say the new book that he has out now is called The Midnight Train.
So that's our fair dealing with him because that's why he came in. Before we go, you'll be pleased to know, Harriet, that our show that's coming to the Edinburgh Fringe in August continues to be the top selling show in Assembly George Square. People are buying tickets in advance.
And I don't know if you saw this on our Rosebud Reflections, but there is people, there are people coming from Australia, just flying from Australia to Edinburgh to see our show. which I think puts some obligation on us for the show to be okay. Also, I want to work out how we're going to meet people afterwards. That's part of what we want to do.
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Chapter 5: What role did writing play in Matt's recovery from mental health issues?
A writer's life and also a life of, in the early parts, a lot of suffering. We're going to be discussing that, I think, I hope, in detail. You mentioned your nan and your parents. Who was your nan? She was your mother's mother?
Yes, but my mother was adopted, so she wasn't her mother by blood, but my nan was a very special person. After my parents was the most significant person in my life, at least when my sister was born, when I was little, she was probably the kindest person I knew. What was her name? Flora. But she was a very strong-willed, let's say. Kind, but strong-willed.
She was the person you'd go to if your tooth needed pulling out. And she would do the whole thing with the string and the door handle. Literally with the string and the door handle. I think she did once, yes. But I can remember her always being the person. Emma was blood involved. And she was not particularly strong on corporal punishment.
But I can remember wooden spoons, her standing there, her silhouette in the doorway when she babysat for me and my sister. If we'd been naughty, she would stand in the doorway. We'd see this big silhouette of my nan. She'd be holding a wooden spoon. not actually to use it on us, but to sort of look threatening and menacing in the doorway.
But she was a great, kind person in lots of ways and very strong-willed. And I have lots of very happy memories. Was she a widow? She was never divorced, but she separated from my mum's adoptive father. They had a very difficult marriage. He was a farmer. I don't think he was ever fully on board with the adopting. So there was all kinds of problematic things.
And I think my mum herself, as well as having the insecurity of being adopted, she also saw a lot of domestic... I mean, he was a farmer with a gun and I think at one point he threatened my nan with a gun and he was drank heavily and yeah, there was a lot of stuff.
So your mum, how was she about being adopted? She was clearly very aware of it.
Very aware of it. My mum, I think, has had lots of insecurities about that. And when I was born, my mum had postnatal depression for quite a while because she still had it when my sister was born three years later. Yes, and I know all this because she gave me to read.
She had one of those five-year diaries, and you'd read sort of like the same day in 1975, 1976, 1977, and she'd be in roughly the same situation and having to call my dad from work because she couldn't look after me and things like that.
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Chapter 6: What insights does Matt share about coping with depression?
And, yes, they've been together since their student years. My mum was at teacher trainers college and my dad... Yeah, my mum...
Can you picture them together? What's the best of them together? Describe them having a good time together, your parents.
Well, they love... They are quite inspirational, but very active. And they love going to the theatre. So my mum... My mum definitely loves going to the theatre. My dad has slept in a lot of theatres. So when I picture them together, it's probably my mum taking my dad to see a play.
And the worst of them together?
Well, I've probably been involved with a lot of those. Probably my... I mean, I cause them a lot of stress in my... In the shoplifting years, which we'll come to. Teenage years, yeah.
Let's stick to you as a small boy. You are born, and your sister's born three years later. Yes. And postnatal depression is part and parcel of this story. Are you aware of that as a little person?
No, I don't think you are. I mean, you know, it's beyond my memory anyway, but I don't think I would have been or ever really was until my mum talked about it to me.
And do you feel, in a sense, guilty about it? The very fact it's called postnatal depression somehow links it with the birth, and so you and your sister are in part responsible.
Yeah, I do. I think this has been, and I don't think it's totally tied to my mother, but I think I've always had a profound sense of having to justify or prove my worth or justify my existence. And so that possible uncertainty at the start was probably always there. Not that it was anyone's fault, it was just there.
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Chapter 7: How does Matt view the impact of his past on his present life?
For a while.
Well, in my head, Matt Zed. Yeah, and it's brilliant. That Zed is so strong. Exactly. But no, it was never official. But I've still actually to this day on, you know, blinking social media, Instagram. My name is Matt Zedhague.
And the next school you go to is what? After 10.
Well, at 10, I was moved again because that was the school I wasn't thinking into. So I had a year in a very small, idyllic little primary school with, I think, only 28 people. It was so small I was in the football team, which, you know, I mean, they had everyone in the football team.
you know so i was there for a year and that was heavenly but then that made the sort of juxtaposition of going to big school a bit scarier and um at secondary school that's when i started to struggle socially i'd say in in a big way where i went inside myself and uh had difficulties
What does this mean? Try to explain how you were behaving at school.
Internally, I just felt very different and sort of had feelings that I couldn't explain in terms of just not fitting in. And I think, again, going back to my... Even though I wasn't adopted, I often felt like my mum never knew, you know, where she fit on, like, any sort of identity, so, like, class. So she would often...
make herself very middle class and so you know should have your radio for and you know all the symbols of middle class as my mum would be but then we lived in a very working class area so I didn't know where I fit in because my mum was a teacher my dad was an architect but I was in this quite tough working class school so automatically there was a kind of disconnect of where I fit in
So to fit in, often I would sort of be very downwardly mobile and sort of like be the naughtiest one or gravitate to the naughtiest.
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Chapter 8: What advice does Matt give about finding hope during tough times?
That's a proper relationship. And you're holding hands for six months and going to Santa Claus the night. That's a proper date. Yeah, exactly. But I remember when we broke up, neither of us were particularly sad about it.
You moved on. That's good. This is the way to approach relationships, actually. Go to a good movie and then move on. That's lovely. But a little bit later, did you have proper girlfriends?
I think I had something like five years of wilderness and then 16 I had a girlfriend for three weeks and I was a terrible boyfriend because I think I broke up with her by letter. Rather than face to face. But I like to say that's because she wasn't in when I called. But I don't know. I think I knocked on her door and didn't wait around very long.
What do the letters say? This isn't working. Thank you and good night. Yes. Oh, dear. Well, at least you did it. Look, nowadays people ghost one another. This is true. So you at least dropped a letter around the house. Yes. which was a nice thing to do. So these are the wilderness years in which shoplifting becomes a feature. Yes. Explain how this began.
Can you remember the first time you did this? And tell us precisely what happened.
I had a friend. I won't give his real name because he's probably managing Tesco's by now.
He's probably in charge of security at Tesco's because he knows how it should be done. It's a big problem for Tesco now, shoplifting. Yes. But anyway, go back. What age are you?
Well, I was very young when I stole my first... I was 11. 11. Let's say 11. I was 11. And he was already a shoplifter. He was one of the few kids who was friendly to me at that time. So I was his friend. And we were in a sports shop, a little independent sports shop, which is terrible. And I think the first thing I ever stole was a tennis ball, which is a ridiculous thing to steal. Why?
Because he did it and I wanted to prove to him that I was proper, like proper, like not this sort of like posh boy. I was just like... I don't know why. And it was just ridiculous.
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