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Chapter 1: What does 'fanning the flames' mean in political discourse?
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Tapahtuipa kerran, että pessimisti, optimisti ja saletisti grillasivat. Ja niinhän siinä kävi, että saletisti onnistui. Saletisti onnistuu! Saletisti onnistuu!
Anu ja Eelin kisastudio on tänään sukujuhlien ullakolla. Etäällä puheista ja pullapitkoista. Eikä heitä hetkauta vaikka sekä juhlat että matsi menisivät jatkoajalle. Elisa Aito 5G parantaa todennetusti akunkestoa jopa 20 prosenttia, koska se toimii aidosti itsenäisessä 5G-verkossa. Vapaus pidempiin peleihin. Elisa Aito 5G. Puhelimeen ja kotiin vain Elisalta. Elisa.fi kautta Aito 5G.
Hello and welcome to Strong Message here from BBC Radio 4, a guide to the use and abuse of political language. I'm Andy Nucci. I'm joined this week once again by Hugo Rifkind from The Times and Times Radio. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are going to look this week at the phrase fanning the flames. I wonder what that's going to lead to. The calculations politicians make.
about their deliberate choice of words and their readiness to charge their opponents with politicising an issue. I've been interviewing a cow today. You've been interviewing a cow? Yes. This is up in the highlands of Scotland. There is a cow called, I think, Moomintrey. Moomintrey. And she is believed to be able to predict...
The results of the World Cup. Right. What she has done, in the company of other cows, is she has been... Oh, they have a syndicate, do they? Well, no, she is apparently the psychic cows. The other cows are just cashing in. The other cows are just stupid. She's presented with a variety of buckets with food and flags on them. She keeps going to the Scottish one and eating the food there.
Okay. Clearly, this means this cow is psychic. This is how religions start. This cow is psychic, and it's predicting glory for Scotland. Or she's saying, this is swill. Yes, sure. Also, she is in Scotland anyway, isn't she? Yes. I mean, she might just be going, I prefer locally sourced food. I'm not sure really how much cows can perceive flags in the first place. I'm not sure about the decision-making process that has led to her being deemed the psychic cow, with the other cows just being cows that like food.
Ei kuitenkaan laittaa mitään näkökulmia uudistamiseen, mutta olisiko se ollut suosittavaa kysymyksiä, jos kokoomus aloittaa? Silloin voisi tarkastella, onko kokoomus onnistunut oikeasti.
But then she might not have been, and we'd have lost the story. Okay, I see. Not if you're getting her journalism work. You realise you've said that into a microphone. Obviously we couldn't interview the cow herself, because she doesn't do talking. No. She wouldn't even moo on demand, actually, so we had to interview the cow's...
Handler? Owner? Farmer is the word I'm looking for. Who was, I would say, defensive about the whole process. You know what, I don't want to shoot it down. I'm not sure this cow can actually predict sporting fixtures. I mean, it's a thorny issue, isn't it? I mean, there will be opinions on both sides about this one. I think it might be fake moose. Oh.
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Chapter 2: Can politicians avoid politicizing sensitive issues?
I thought you were going to say you'd found a room to sleep in, but it'd been on the wrong side of the maze. I'm still there. I'm broadcasting from there. But it does make me think about politicians who say that they don't need much sleep, because I am always very suspicious of them. The efficiency of a nap is fascinating, because I'm a big fan of the 10-minute power nap as well. And yet, I'm well aware that if I get that 10 minutes between
No. No, no, no. Yeah.
No harm done. But maybe he's just being very efficient. He goes, if I get an extra ten minutes, or let's be honest, four hours at night, that's not going to do me any good. Whereas if I get ten minutes in an actual literal meeting with Vladimir Zelensky, that's charging me up no end. But in those clips of him asleep in the middle of Oval Office meeting, no one dare say he's power napping. Yeah, you always wonder with those clips. I mean, I think he is asleep, but he might just be...
Sort of rolling his eyes. What did I just say? They say he's thinking. He's weighing it all up while making a noise of someone snoring. It's remarkable how little he sleeps. He's about to turn 80. He turns 80 this week. And he sleeps so very little. Apparently the time when this is a real problem is on official trips. Because no one wants to get on Air Force One with him.
Because you go to sleep, if you're Marco Rubio, and you want to get your normal six or seven hour sleep, probably being Marco Rubio hanging upside down from some sort of cave, but nonetheless, six or seven hour sleep. You can't, because Trump gets 45 minutes and just comes and wakes you up and wants to talk at you, and you're sitting there nodding. I mean, is there not a dark gun or something to produce? Nothing more sinister than putting him to sleep, that's all I'm saying. Nothing more sinister than that.
He put a bag on his head like a parrot. That's not my work. Yes, yeah. I mean, Thatcher famously only got four hours. Yeah, but you could see it, couldn't you? Oh, God, yes. I mean, she did also sell off all her infrastructure. Imagine what would happen if she'd slept more. She'd have been like a liberal democrat. Mellow. Yes, okay.
Anyway, right. The phrase we're looking at is fanning the flames. There's a whole subset to this, like, you know, stalking up division, piling on, only making things worse, and teetering on those other two, which is politicizing and weaponizing. And politicians are always accusing other people of politicizing stuff, which makes you think, yeah, but that's what politicians do.
And then when does something being politicized actually tip over into being weaponized? So I think when something is politicized, well everything, if it's politics, it's politicized. Politics, you can't say anything but it's politicizing it. I think when it's being weaponized is when you are using it to make a political point that is not the real political point it's about. You're using it, you're twisting it. I think if you're accusing somebody of something and they have done that thing, then you're not weaponizing the thing, you're just saying it.
Joten siinä on semmoinen, että jos minä sanon tämän sanan, niin tiettyjä ihmisiä, jotka ovat minun tuottajat, tietävät, mitä minä tarkoitan. Ei vain se. Katsokaa tätä huonoa asiaa viime viikossa. Henryn Novakin asia. Huono asia hänen murhauksestaan ja poliisien huonoa tehtävää, kun he tuli alas.
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Chapter 3: What is the difference between politicizing and weaponizing an issue?
Since we ought to look at the emergency address, the phrase everyone responds to is pure cold rage. What's your take on that? It's a really interesting phrase, pure cold rage, because every word of that is interesting, right? Pure is interesting, cold is interesting, rage is interesting. Rage...
Rage is generally bad in public debates, I would say. I can understand he's saying people are angry, he wants to challenge that. Cold. Cold. Now, if he said respond with hot rage, that's definitely a call for riots. If he says respond with cold rage...
That sounds like it's not, but that also makes it sound like lukewarm rage would be worse than cold rage. I'm not sure that's right. Cold rage sounds slightly sinister, really. What is cold rage? Is that shouting? I don't know. I don't know, maybe it's a sort of withering rage? I mean, warm rage, a kind of chummy, inclusive rage, would be very odd as well. Cold rage sounds more hostile than hot rage, I'd say. Hot rage sounds, not that I'm endorsing hot rage, but...
If your rage was hot, it sounds like... Hot is sort of an obvious description of someone who's in a rage, isn't it? Hot-tempered, hot. You can't tell someone to be in a hot rage. If you're saying cold rage, it sounds very calculated. It sounds deliberate rage. We're not going to shout and scream right now. What we're going to do is in 24 hours time, we're going to shout and scream. We're going to plan this and synchronize it. That's the kind of the...
What I'm taking from it. And you're right about all the words, because the word that I picked up on was pure. Well, pure is interesting, because of course the BBC got into trouble, because Newsnight said, Newsnight described it as... Matt Chorley. Matt Chorley said he'd said white cold rage, and had to apologise, and Farage and Reform were very cross. Although...
Well, he was saying pure cold rage and not white cold rage. And he's saying, if I'd been saying white cold rage, that would have been racializing it, although obviously it wouldn't have been meant in those ways. I don't know whether Matt Trolley was thinking of white heat or something like that. But the reform objection, saying that would have been racializing it, when I called for pure cold rage, not white cold rage, it's like, well, yeah, but...
He was calling for pure cold rage from white people, and I'm sure he would deny that, but he did say he was talking about a two-tier culture in this country where the rights and privileges of white people matter less than those of ethnic minorities. So I don't think it's the ethnic minorities he thinks is going to be cross about this. So the thing he was accusing, he was basically cross that Newsnight had described him as saying...
What he meant, rather than what he actually said, which was very studiously not quite what he meant. There was something that I thought, oh, that's familiar. When on, I think it was on Times Radio the next day, he said, I used that term very, very deliberately for your cold rage. I suggested that rage was put in a cold way, not a hot way. Okay, we've discussed that. The relative temperatures of rage. Putting rage in a cold way sounds to me...
Se on hieman sinisterempi kuin hot way. Premeditated rage is what it is. Yes. I'm trying to find words to describe his technique, which is a very specific speculation that hides a kind of...
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Chapter 4: How does journalism contribute to political narratives?
Eväs, leipä, autopesu, jäte, karkkipussi, tuulilasinpesuneste, tankkaus, pähkinäpatukka. Ei väliä, mitä tarvitset matkaasi nesteliikenneasemilta, mutta vinkkidä, käytä plussakorttiasi. Plussakorttia käyttämällä olet nimittäin mukana nesteliikenneasemien lounasjahdissa, josta voit voittaa kuukauden lounaat. Lisätiedot neste.fi kautta plussa. LähiTapiola. Samalla puolella.
My theory about the two-tier thing, it's just that Kea Starmo was cursed with a monosyllabic and eminently rhymeable with name, Kea. Because you get this two-tier Kea thing, you get this everything is too dear Kea, and you know, it's just...
No cheer is care, you know, he's still here, it's care. Take a long walk off a short tear, care. Yeah, absolutely. The drop in your polling has been sheer care. It's just that sort of, it just becomes a game. Rather like when everybody piled on, you know, the Booty McBoat face. It just became funny to just keep going with it. I do wonder, because a lot of people have been saying, I mean, he's not bad as in a person, but there's this loathing for him.
Is it a sort of actually a performance thing in that it's just become a sort of public game piling on about Kea and his eminently rhymeable name and all that?
If you look at other polls where people are asked, you know, who would make the best prime minister, he comes on top, above Andy Burnham and Farage. So what's going on? Is it just the perils of having a rhymeable name? I think so. I think, do you know what I mean? It's like tabloid culture, like you can tell, I mean, you know, where's Streeting? There's fun you can have with his name.
Stop bleating, Mr. Streeting. Stop bleating, Mr. Streeting. If he got involved in a property scam, it'd be like, you know, Wes's Desres or something like that. It'd be fantastic. There's not a lot you can do with Andy. I was going to refer, your chances of becoming PM are more and more fleeting, Mr. Streeting. Mr. Streeting, that's very good. Burnham, no, Burnham, I can't do much with Burnham. No, Burnham Woods, that's it. I keep trying to make that joke and I'm never sure it quite lands. What is it?
Kun puhutaan, että pitäisi pysyä kiinni, että ihmiset pitäisi olla huolta siitä, millainen kieli he käyttävät ja niin edelleen. Se tuli minulle miettimään kaksi eri asiaa. Ensimmäinen on koodattuja sanat. Kun poliitikot käyttävät sanat, jotka yllättävät sinua, ja siksi ne ovat käyttäneet yllättäen,
As in, you know, all the analysts are going, oh, that's interesting. He's called it that. That means X. That means he's going to resign. Or that means, you know, what I keep, trust you how old I am, I keep thinking of Geoffrey Howe, who had resigned as deputy prime minister. And so this was his...
When a cabinet member resigns, they're entitled to a kind of resignation speech in the House of Commons. And this is where he outlined his reasons for resigning and included the phrase. It's like the team captain had come out at the break and tampered with... It's like the batsmen are sent out to bat and realise when they get out to bat that their bats have been broken. By the team captain. It was a very, very specific and unusual cricket analogy.
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Chapter 5: What are the effects of power naps on productivity?
Rage. But righteous anger is the only response. The only response is the other thing there that I find interesting. When politicians say, it always reminds me of, I did what I did because it was the right thing to do. That's the mic drop. There's no discussion after that. It was the right thing. Okay, can we determine if it was the right thing? Vance was, you would think awkwardly, but turns out not that awkwardly for him, fundamentally wrong.
Fundamentally he's good, against righteous. He was righteously wrong. No, but he was wrong. He was just wrong. Because he described the Novak story as being basically a story about immigration. You know, Novak's killer was born in Britain. So unless he meant it's a story about long-term immigration, the terrible arrival to the West of people like, for example, his own wife, or indeed the entirety of America, then I think he was just making an error there.
He just saw person of color and assumed this person must be an immigrant, and he was wrong. You'd think someone would have googled that for him. Yes, and he described it as, again, it's just the weirdness of the description. He said, if the last few generations of European elites had stood their ground against the politics of self-hatred and the mass invasion of migrants, many of whom despised the West...
The last few generations of European elites. How far back are we going here? I know. Are we talking about Churchill? How far back are we going? Maybe it's been downhill ever since the Nazis. Maybe that's what he's saying. Yeah, the last few elites. So not politicians then, because he's a politician who doesn't want to describe himself as a politician, or who wants to describe the politicians who he despises as
Ne eivät ole nimeltä poliitikkoja, ne ovat nimeltä elit. Muistan, että teimme White House Correspondence-yhteyden, kun Obama oli presidentti. Se oli jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain tapaa jollain
Katsotaanpa jotain muuta poliitikkoa. He sanovat, ettei hänet voi kutsua poliitikkoon. He eivät tykkää siitä. Voit kutsua puheenjohtajaksi. Koska puheenjohtaja on ylipäänsä poliitikko. Senaattori tai senaattori. Kutsutaan heidät yrityksessä. Ei kutsuta heidät poliitikkoon, koska se on derogatiivinen. Se on mielenkiintoista. He ovat poliitikkoja. He ovat valmistautuneita.
I guess it should be derogatory. Just another thing that Vance said when he was talking about this. The quote that he said, he said, Henry Novak died in the same way that a civilization dies. Abandoned, handcuffed by the authorities who neither trusted nor cared for him and accused of hate crimes he did not commit. Now the last bit of that...
It's powerful rhetoric. It's righteous anger, I suppose. Died in the same way as civilization dies. Is that how civilizations die? No. I don't think it is how civilizations die. No, not abandoned and handcuffed. When one thinks of how the Incas died, you know, I don't think it was...
Kyllä, se ei ollut väärän poliisipolitiikan vuoksi. En tiedä. En ole yksilö. Poliisi oli todennäköisesti osallistunut, mutta ei väärän poliisipolitiikan vuoksi. Kyllä, kyllä, kyllä. Tämä on niin, kuinka ympäristö kuuluu. Pitäkää huomioon, että tämä tulee Yhdysvalloista, joka viime aikoina vaikuttaa ympäristöön.
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Chapter 6: How does Keir Starmer's name impact public perception?
What's of use to me is the image of a beach being stormed. You wonder if he could have turned it around. I mean, just be charitable to him. If we can help him make this work. If he could have been like... I certainly don't want to give him another go. He's like, here on D-Day... Next year. He's got a year to do this. Here on D-Day, I feel it's important to say that I'm not a fan of the Nazis. However...
One lesson we can take from them is how good they were at defending beaches. Until they weren't. Already you're in trouble. Where the Nazis went wrong was by letting it all fall apart on the beaches of Normandy. That's what he wants to say. Right. Yes. Okay. No? And in response to Hexeth, I quite like to...
Kuten Simon Sharma, tärkeä historiallinen Simon Sharma, kertoi, mitä hän sanoi, että on erityinen luotettavuus, historiallinen tyhjyys, tyhjyys, ja komikin ludikkoinen itsevaihtoehto, jota minun mielestäni on aika hyvä. Minun mielestäni se on, että on sellaista, että tiedän, mitä sanon,
will really annoy a lot of people, especially all these people here in front of me. I don't care. Because I'm American. I think that's a kind of... Yeah, but again, there should be a bit of him that's going... Because America venerates the D-Day landings.
America venerates the troops, and rightly. It's such a core part of it. I want to use the word myth, but that suggests that it's not real. It is where the belief in America as the land that frees the rest of the world from the yoke of tyranny comes from. Actually, I'll qualify. He doesn't think because I'm American. He's thinking because I'm the right kind of American. I'm the current type of American that's in power.
Olemme tehneet Vancea ja Hexethiä, mutta voimme katsoa heidän bossiaan, joka on täysin vastuullinen siitä, mitä he sanovat ja tekevät. Donald Trump. Esitys viikonloppuun, NBC's Meet the Pressin kanssa, joka puhui erilaisista asioista Iranin kanssa. Hän teki sen, josta ajattelin, että tämä on mahtavaa. Se on täysin 360-luvulla.
In 30 seconds. You say we've depleted their military, we've destroyed their military. Their capability has been absolutely destroyed. We then asked whether he knew how many missiles Iran had left. And he said, quote, yes, but I'm not going to tell you. We've totally destroyed their military. Most of their capacity has been knocked out, but they still have some missiles. I would say maybe 21 to 22 percent. It's a lot of missiles. Mm-hmm.
Does he need anyone else there? He's just arguing with himself. No, and I think actually that's the key if you're interviewing Trump. Don't badger him, because he'll just walk out, which is actually what happened at the end of that interview, when he was badgered about January 6th, and was the election really stolen, so he just walked out at that point. If you just let him, just give him key words like, how many?
He'll just unravel in front of you. He sort of did it again today, although in the other direction. He was talking about the latest negotiations with Iran that are apparently happening. He said basically we're having great negotiations, they're going extremely well, we're very close to doing a deal and we'll have total victory.
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Chapter 7: What are the implications of using 'announceables' in politics?
Donald Trumpable, I don't know. No, I'm still trying to work it out. It's announcing a policy, but not saying you're going to go ahead with the policy, just saying that you're thinking about the policy. No, it's not announcing it. It's not that, no. Once you've announced it, it ceases to be an announceable. It's become an announcement. So it's a kind of...
It's like a quantum policy, which may or may not be announced, and that won't be determined until such time as it is announced. Again, it's Schrödinger's policy. As soon as you gaze at it and turn it into an announcement, it ceases to be unannounceable. See, when Jon Stewart, I think more or less this time last year, talked about Trump being the announcement presidency, where it was about getting the headline rather than the actual nitty-gritty of the policy happening or whatever. And
Announcements are what they are, aren't they? It sounds like you're achieving something by actually doing nothing other than suggesting a topic for discussion. Yeah, you line up your announcements, you have a conveyor belt of announcements. Because it's much easier to come up with an announcement than it is to come up with a policy. Of course, yes. And most policies cost money. So actually, the last thing you want to do is actually enact a policy.
I guess in the best case scenario you've got an achievable announceable. Right, yes. An achievable deliverable announceable. Yes, yes. But it has to be cheap. It has to be low cost. An affordable achievable. Yeah, exactly. I was looking for the word. Thank you. An affordable achievable announceable. That may even be deliverable. Thanks for listening to Strong Message here. I'll be back next week. And why not go and listen to some of our episodes from our back catalogue. Just search for Strong Message here and subscribe on BBC Sounds. Goodbye. Goodbye.
Tervetuloa monelliset munchkinsit, vihreämpiä ystäviä ja vihreämpiä tyypillisiä. Tervetuloa takaisin oksimoronin kohdalle. Ihmisen tyypillinen. Olen Russell Kane ja olen iloinen, että olen johtanut sivun, joka onnistuu kestämättä historiallisista ihmisistä täydellisiin kohdallisiin, jotta voimme päättää, onko he ihmisiä, onko he tyypillisiä tai onko he tyypillinen. Se on kuten podcast-versio, jossa kerrotaan lapsille, että iskrimen vanha soittaa musiikkia, kun se ei ole iskrimen.
Seuraavaksi potilas 2934. 79 prosenttia kokee, ettei tule nähdyksi hakiessaan apua terveydenhuollosta.
Asioita voidaan tehdä myös toisin. Jokainen ansaitsee tulla nähdyksi terveydenhuollossa. Pihlajalinna. Ihmisen kokoista huolenpitoa.
Tie suomalaisen sydämeen käy hyvän kahvin kautta. Kahvin tehtävä ei ole pitää sinua hereillä. Tai no, on se sitäkin. Mutta ennen kaikkea se on tapa sanomatta sanoa. Ole tärkeä. Sen avulla kerromme, että välitämme. Se on tapa sanoa kiitos. Se on hetki, jota odotamme, jonka ansaitsemme. Heille, jotka ansaitsevat kultaa. Kulta Katriina. Eläköön suomalainen kahvikulttuuri.
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